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More Details On The OpenGL Situation In KDE's KWin

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  • #31
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    Most of the Xorg/Mesa developers are volunteers as well.
    And I also hate it when they get shat on by unthankful gimme-gimme-gimme users too.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by dfx. View Post
      that's the thing - _currently overall situation is not that messy as he writes_, currently his situation is that messy because he using obsolete graphic stack.
      Unfortunately, the vast majority of Linux users are using an obsolete graphics stack, and they want to run KWin, and will complain that KWin is broken if he doesn't blacklist things that don't work.

      I have said it before that more communication would have resolved some of the issues. The dev seems to agree, and we can hope that things work better in the future. But the guy is a volunteer hacker, stop banging on him ffs.

      If you don't like it, submit a fucking patch.

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      • #33
        Well, the way I see it is that simply put: that Kwin developper does not _require_ blobs or anythinh else, just shadowfb, and that he does his code against the spec and that FLOSS drivers, no matter how you look at it, are simple _broken_.

        Now I know you, including, do not like that, but let's face it; Mesa is shipping with lying drivers.

        A sane solution would be to ship stable Mesa versions with drivers that advertise only their correct functionality, and the development releases with advertising that which is needed to get games running so people can report bugs and start hacking at it.

        Seriously... Mesa is simply broken so face the truth; if you ship drivers that lie; accept that the FLOSS drivers are Not Up To It Yet(tm).

        I liked playing Tomb Raider Anniversary with some tiny rare artifacts, but the dektop is ten times more important to me.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
          As for the fact that he is a volunteer, this is rather bad for KDE in general.
          No, it's really GOOD for KDE in general. KDE has always been a community effort, and it has NEVER been a corporate product. Some things are simply different when the development model is open and community based, sometimes it can be a pain in the behind, but on the general, the good outweighs the bad, which is why I'm still using Linux and not something else.

          They've been churning out quality desktops for almost 15 years now. That's exactly the way things should be.

          It's just that the users need to see themselves as a part of a community instead of seeing themselves as customers who have a RIGHT (!!!!!) to get free stuff without bugs.

          So you want to tell me that KDE tries to "innovate the desktop" using only a small number of volunteer devs
          No, they innovate the desktop using a LARGE number of volunteer devs. They've been doing it since 1996, and doing it really well.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by RealNC View Post
            No, we couldn't. KWin disables stuff with Mesa drivers; we never get to see it so we can report it..
            Sure you can. You can disable the checks.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
              Unfortunately, the vast majority of Linux users are using an obsolete graphics stack, and they want to run KWin, and will complain that KWin is broken if he doesn't blacklist things that don't work.
              I don't want to criticise the Kwin developer for (gasp) volunteering his work and coding the window manager I use. Neither can I tell him to go build damn mesa and a new kernel. However, there's something that doesn't make much sense to me here: stable Linux distributions such as the one he's using will never get the KDE versions being developed now. He is coding stuff that will only be released in...2 years time, relying on the graphics capabilities of...2 years ago. Again, I won't demand anything from his free time, but given the reality of the graphics stack development, this sounds really wrong.

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              • #37
                You can disable the checks with the checkbox option listed in a tab in the dektop effects section of the System Settings app in KDE SC..

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                  I don't want to criticise the Kwin developer for (gasp) volunteering his work and coding the window manager I use. Neither can I tell him to go build damn mesa and a new kernel. However, there's something that doesn't make much sense to me here: stable Linux distributions such as the one he's using will never get the KDE versions being developed now. He is coding stuff that will only be released in...2 years time, relying on the graphics capabilities of...2 years ago. Again, I won't demand anything from his free time, but given the reality of the graphics stack development, this sounds really wrong.
                  I can't speak for everyone running Linux, but I have always upgraded to the latest KDE version offered by my distro (whether Debian, RedHat, SuSE or Gentoo), and I know plenty of people who do so. And the stuff that seems to be controversial (blur plugin) has been released for a long time already.

                  For most people, upgrading to a stable KDE version is much less scary than upgrading the driver stack (including the kernel) to a git snapshot.

                  I do agree though that Debian often provides outdated drivers and such.

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                  • #39
                    Most KDE fanbois don't get it and never will.

                    I am not against volunteer work and i am not bashing anyone for contributing in his spare time.

                    But just because someone offers me freely a pile of junk, doesn't mean i have to use it, or not criticize it...

                    When you expect users to use your project, you have to respect them and not make them suffer because you offered it for free.

                    KDE advertises itself as a mature DE intended for everyone. So it is open for criticism when it gets stuff wrong.

                    So what happens when a new user decides to finally give Linux a try and uses KDE? When things begin to segmentfault on him and desktop begins to crash, he will decide Linux is broken and move to Windows again. In effect, KDE's unstability gives Linux a bad name, and this is something that concerns all os us, KDE users or not...

                    So enough of justifying poor development practice just because we are fanbois of a project.

                    KDE devs were wrong, and let's hope they will change their practices in the future...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                      So what happens when a new user decides to finally give Linux a try and uses KDE? When things begin to segmentfault on him and desktop begins to crash, he will decide Linux is broken and move to Windows again. In effect, KDE's unstability gives Linux a bad name, and this is something that concerns all os us, KDE users or not...
                      I have yet to see this happen. More FUD.

                      None of the stuff discussed here can make your desktop segfault. In fact, they even blacklist drivers so this is not possible.

                      KDE has had some stability problems during 4.0 and 4.1. That's because of a huge update of all core technologies. GNOME is still running on much older software. Wait till the GNOME 3 transition, it will be a riot.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                        Of course GNOME is developed by volunteers, as most opensource projects. The difference of GNOME is that it doesn't push untested volunteer work to users, like KDE does...
                        What part of the "The Mesa driver is broken, not KDE" did you not get?

                        Originally posted by sundown View Post
                        Is this going to be fixed on some front?

                        Kwin Composting fucking sucks for me with gallium!
                        Your problem can be fixed with tissues.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                          I can't speak for everyone running Linux, but I have always upgraded to the latest KDE version offered by my distro (whether Debian, RedHat, SuSE or Gentoo), and I know plenty of people who do so. And the stuff that seems to be controversial (blur plugin) has been released for a long time already.

                          For most people, upgrading to a stable KDE version is much less scary than upgrading the driver stack (including the kernel) to a git snapshot.

                          I do agree though that Debian often provides outdated drivers and such.
                          Actually, it appears that he is using Debian Squeeze, which is now frozen. So the situation is not at all the one I mentioned previously, where I implied a lag between KDE and graphics development of years. I guess the logic still holds to some extent, though, due to the particular state of development of the graphics stack.

                          As for installing KDE vs mesa git, you're comparing it unfairly. Of course it's easier to install the whole KDE binary packages from the repositories than fetching the ddx, mesa, drm and (possibly) a new kernel and compile them. But what about KDE from source? I took a look at their 'documentation' and didn't even know where to start. The Kwin developer himself stated that it's not a trivial task, taking him over 1 day to compile. Even if I wanted, I couldn't test new KDE versions at all. Although I never had to compile the whole X server to test new drivers, I'd feel much more comfortable doing so than tackling KDE.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                            As for installing KDE vs mesa git, you're comparing it unfairly. Of course it's easier to install the whole KDE binary packages from the repositories than fetching the ddx, mesa, drm and (possibly) a new kernel and compile them. But what about KDE from source?
                            I haven't done this since KDE 3 days. Back then it wasn't too difficult, but anything that involves compiling hundreds upon hundreds of megabytes of source is bound to be a drag. They've changed the build system in the meantime, and I don't know how it is today, but the source code has really grown in the meantime.

                            Still, I think that desktop packages are more easily available than drivers (because broken konqueror will break fewer things than broken a broken filesystem or Xorg), and people tend to install them even on older distributions. While many distros offer experimental drivers as packages, it kind of comes with a big "hazard" sign, not like an upgrade to a mature desktop environment, so people don't like installing them.

                            TBH, I used to be quite into tinkering and experimental software, but I got a bit tired of it. I run the experimental code when I need it (like portage or ATI drivers), and stick to the stable stuff for the rest. But with KDE, I always get recent stuff. If I were a GNOME user, I'd probably be running Mutter and GNOME Shell right now.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                              Of course GNOME is developed by volunteers, as most opensource projects. The difference of GNOME is that it doesn't push untested volunteer work to users, like KDE does...
                              Boy, you haven't been around for long, have you?

                              Otherwise you would have remembered the Nautilus fiasco -- the only file manager in the world that didn't work. But it had to be the default since we spent 7 million bucks on it.

                              GNOME could be cutting edge too you know, if GNOME's devs had KDE's mentality...

                              Spin it as you like, but to push the untested work of a simple volunteer to the public, is not the policy of a serious project...
                              You're not following recent stuff either, I see.

                              Mutter requires hardware acceleration, with no fallbacks. This means that it won't work with Mesa on many Nvidia cards. At all. I'm sure they'll file a bug, though.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                                I have yet to see this happen. More FUD.

                                None of the stuff discussed here can make your desktop segfault. In fact, they even blacklist drivers so this is not possible.

                                KDE has had some stability problems during 4.0 and 4.1. That's because of a huge update of all core technologies. GNOME is still running on much older software. Wait till the GNOME 3 transition, it will be a riot.
                                Don't tell me what i and others i know have faced or not... I am not the only one having problems, KDE's reputation for instability has a reason...

                                And no, GNOME 3 will not be the failure KDE 4.0 was...

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