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Open-Source GPU Drivers Causing Headaches In KDE 4.5

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  • #91
    Originally posted by deanjo View Post
    I'm not sure you can really consider hardware capabilities that have been around for 4 years "so close to the edge".
    FAIL!

    ...so close to the edge in terms of driver functionality.

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    • #92
      What about XRender? Is this going to offer a respectable framerate on HD3300 and a HD5770?

      This is ofcourse not the way to go, but if it works as an interim solution I'd be happy.

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      • #93
        Oh nevermind... it runs like crap! -_-

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        • #94
          Originally posted by marek View Post
          This OpenGL 3 madness is bullshit. Even in 2010, there are still D3D9 games with cutting-edge graphics, take Starcraft 2 as an example. It uses all the graphics techniques you would expect from a modern game, even though D3D9 is somewhere between GL1.5 and GL2.1 (based on what hardware you look at). If that game doesn't need more, neither does kwin or any other compositor. To maintain the highest level of compatibility, I would go GL1.5, using the CG Toolkit to compile my GLSL shaders to ARB assembly. Don't tell me kwin devs can't implement the Gaussian blur in the 64 ALU instruction limit. Using GL3 will perhaps make the devs look great, but it won't improve graphics or anything compared to what they can achieve with GL1.5. It seems to me to be like "hey look, I got GTX460 and I can use GL4 for no reason! cool, yeah!"
          I'm going to have to disagree with ya just a bit. GL 1.4 DX 7, GL 1.5 DX8 is dead. Disable or pop up you don't have necessary hardware to run this menu items that want to use that on the desktop. GL 2.0 and 2.1 should be the bottom lines. But once that's done a lot of infrastructre is built to use shaders. So getting opengl 3.0 3.2 and 4.0 is somewhat easier.

          Shooting for opengl 3.0 on a compositer right now seems a bit whip cracky take a chill pill to me.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by not.sure View Post
            FAIL!

            ...so close to the edge in terms of driver functionality.
            There is no failure other then failure of the opensource drivers being able to fully support 4 year old hardware with a 2 year old API spec. I'm sorry you failed to understand that.

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            • #96
              If you look at the manpower; the results and progress is remarkable, if not awardable.

              Saying that the open source drivers are inadequate for todays expectations is probably a better way to discribe the problem

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              • #97
                KDE developers designing and testing their software on the Nvidia blob, now that is a surprise, NOT! It's fine with me but then they should advertise their software as such.
                • KDE, minimum system requirements: Nvidia blob
                • KDE recommends Nvidia blob
                • KDE, best played with Nvidia blob

                Because what they are doing now is very disingenuous. They willingly released their software knowing very well that it would cause severe problems for users not running the Nvidia blob, then after they got some flak from their user base they failed to take responsibility for their own actions and starting pointing fingers.

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by monraaf View Post
                  Because what they are doing now is very disingenuous. They willingly released their software knowing very well that it would cause severe problems for users not running the Nvidia blob, then after they got some flak from their user base they failed to take responsibility for their own actions and starting pointing fingers.
                  Come on. This is an end-user issue, not a developer issue. End-users using KDE and not using nVidia blob should obviously be filing more bugs.

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by drag View Post
                    Even with the commercial backing of Trolltech and now Nokia the KDE folks are still so backwards that they are depending on Khtml instead of switching to Webkit.
                    It sounds like something similar to Qt vs Gtk. So, isn't Gnome backward using Gtk toolkit instead of Qt the same way as KDE is backward in your opinion using Khtml instead of Webkit? They have commercial support from Novell, Ximians, Red Hat and more. Why they're so backward then?

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                    • Originally posted by drag View Post
                      [...]
                      Even with the commercial backing of Trolltech and now Nokia the KDE folks are still so backwards that they are depending on Khtml instead of switching to Webkit. Their solution? Make users choose to use the better renderer. If you don't understand why this is insane, then just keep further desktop discussions to yourself until you figure out some reality.
                      I'll give you a STFU since you have no fucking clue. Khtml has to stay! It is called binary compatibility.

                      The same baseless shit gets constantly repeated. Would you mind informing yourself first before doing that?
                      And before I forget it Khtml still has maintainers while hardly none was working on the WebkitPart.
                      That is the way FOSS works get used to it, do something yourself or **** off.

                      Yeah personally I prefer Webkit myself but that does not change the facts I mentioned above.

                      People like you annoy me as you have nothing productive to add and just spread hatred and bs. All that stupid blaming game helps no one and talking shit helps no one either.

                      @monraaf No, it is not KDE devs testing their stuff on Nvidia cards with Nvidia drivers but the KWin ones [1] since that is the hardware they _have_. Even if other devs report issues it is still hard to fix them if you can't reproduce them. And before I forget it older versions of KWin worked pretty nice on a very old Intel card I tried it once. Yeah that might have changed and then it is a bug but what you do is ridiculous.

                      And btw. show me a Nokia or former Trolltech funded KWin developer of importance for this problem!

                      [1] And Kwin does not have much manpower to begin with.

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                      • It seems to be mostly older Intel drivers causing issues. Does everything work with the current git master?

                        The main reason they want to start using OpenGL2 is so they can port KWin to OpenGL ES and run on mobile devices. Sounds like FBOs are one of the main OpenGL3 features they'd like to use, but they will retain backwards compatible code for it. Other stuff like geometry shaders might be used in advanced effects only, or with alternative lower-quality backups in place.

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                        • @Monraaf,
                          I'm pretty hamered right now, but that's fscking funny

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                          • Originally posted by Hephasteus View Post
                            I'm going to have to disagree with ya just a bit. GL 1.4 DX 7, GL 1.5 DX8 is dead. Disable or pop up you don't have necessary hardware to run this menu items that want to use that on the desktop. GL 2.0 and 2.1 should be the bottom lines.
                            ATI have never released a GL2 GPU. Some GLSL features are not supported by hardware, the GL2 non-power-of-two textures are not supported at all. R300 up to R400 don't fully support separate stencil. NV30 has similar limitations (like separate blend equations are not supported).

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                            • But a lot is good

                              Hi all

                              I am just a user who likes free.. I think this thread could be very valuable.

                              As for the discussion, I think blame-game is some usefull, but in this regard maybe it have done its task. Yes, drivers listed as support for feauture OGL2, should have support for OGL2, or be very clear on the exeptions. Also developers are responsable for their own software working, also KDE.

                              I am a user. I have KDE 4.5.1 on Ubuntu Lucid and free radeon driver for my hd3450(r600 series). I will like to thank all parties for outstanding work, because this is the most slick I have ever seen. Not perfect, but very very good. Do not forget the good things during the critics. . So opengl does not work for the desktop effects, but xrender works very well. I have a more responsive system than I ever had with unfree Catalyst.. I lack a bit speed in some games, but hey I can play Nexuiz with high resolution and low effects settings at good speed... I did go from Nvidia about a year ago to AMD because of these free drivers. Finally the free drivers are becomming usefull for me. I really want to upgrade to an Evergreen card, but waiting a bit for the drivers(or are they usefull yet with free drivers?)

                              Maybe KDE should have gone for older GL-spesifications, but they have not. I wonder if it really is much lacking for good support in GL2*. If current drivers are allmost there I think KDE are on track. Bugs can maybe be sorted out within few weeks. If we are talking about lot of lot coding maybe KDE should at least make a fallback option to older GL-spesifiction. Anyway it sounds like a idea good idea if it not takes too much work. Can anyone tell about the volume of these bugs(say for my very own radeon r600)??

                              Then the opening article prospects long long time before the free Linux stack is ready for full OpenGL 3. It sounds like a good idea to make good collabration on how to get there and priority of the features. Maybe Involving Xorg, Gnome, KDE, Blender(?), Nexuiz(?), other(?).

                              Also it is clear that manpower should be increased in driver development. I may suggest:
                              - More lobbying/meetings/speeches toward the card companies. They should know that free drivers are a good selling point, and will be ever more important as Linux booming in small consumer devices. We should get to the point were good free drivers are released with the new cards.
                              - Speeches and seminars at the top relevant universities for atracting young coders.
                              - Good/better documentation when major rewrite is ready. (In this thread major rewrite of code was argument for not putting effort in documentation right now)
                              - User petitions for more investments in free drivers from the big companies.
                              - Maybe bug reporting could be made more easy, for instance with a unified report system between big distros, desktop environments, and important parts like Xorg and Linux. Could we make people file more reports, better reports, and increase the flow of relevant reports between the communities.

                              Anyway. Big thanks for all the good work. I know I can not contribute a lot. I can not do much more than Hello World or a little snake game in c++/glut. Hope my post was a bit constructive.

                              Comment


                              • @Risotto77;
                                Very constructive post, but bugs are not just errors reports or mistakes in the free software world. Dealing with GPU drivers is a very complex umdertaking. However with the new driver architecture things are a changing. For all graphics cards only one API needs to be made once. One API to rule them all. This architecture, called Gallium3D, makes sure that once a base driver works; every API works on that GPU. Writing a driver that works 100% correctly with all these API's, called State Trackers (State Machines), appears not to be easily done. The foundation for this architecture is so new that bugs can be realy severe ones.

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