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Nouveau vs. NVIDIA Linux Comparison Shows Shortcomings

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  • #46
    Originally posted by calim View Post
    I guess a test lab that regularly checks if all cards are still working would be nice. And someone to fix them when they aren't. I'll hire someone for that in case I win the lottery.
    To create serious things, you need serious attitude and serious base. Lottery has high chance to fail, so will everything built on top of it. There is no magic.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by calim View Post
      For most cards there seem to be people with issues ... my GTX680 works perfectly fine, for Michael it seems not to. Should we disable acceleration for everything except, say, whatever works for him ? And how would we notice if things started working [again] ? Maybe we should, to make it obvious to us how broken things really are. But not my decision. I'll ask, at least about the 240.

      Anyway, you're right we should focus more on stability and be nicer to users. But it's hard, especially when you're on a feature frenzy (need. to. get. reclocking/<GL extension>. working. argh !)

      I guess a test lab that regularly checks if all cards are still working would be nice. And someone to fix them when they aren't. I'll hire someone for that in case I win the lottery.
      I remember Michael saying that the GTX680 worked with a previous version of Nouveau until this test was run with the latest upstream drivers. Not to question your setup, but is your working version of Nouveau the same as his?

      Another possible thought just occurred to me about the GTX680: what if one of you were actually using a non-reference card? Michael never went into the specifics of his hardware; he just said it was a GTX680. And we all know that there are quite a handful of graphics cards vendors marketing the GTX680, some even with non-reference designs and specifications such as being factory-overvolted/overclocked or something else. Could that be a factor for one GTX680 working in the Nouveau drivers but another GTX680 failing to do so?

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      • #48
        Originally posted by brosis View Post
        Yes, "no time" equals "lazy" polite form. Its psychology proved reference.
        Young children say "I don't like it" meaning they would do something else.
        Adults say "I don't have time" meaning they would do something else.
        "Lazy here" means "busy elsewhere", including doing "nothing".
        I have no / too little time to implement the tons of shader compiler optimizations I'd really like to implement to make things faster.
        I have no time for tuning and tweaking performance for various GL applications.
        I have no time to reverse engineer and implement changing clock speeds (but luckily someone else is doing that, it's called "specialization", not lack of team spirit).
        I have no time to (re-)implement / fix the Direct3D 1x state tracker so I can finally play some of those games with "native" performance (even if that's pointless with the current native performance of nouveau).

        But ...
        I have time to implement new OpenGL extensions for nouveau as mesa acquires them.
        I (will hopefully at some point) have time to make multi-threaded gallium contexts work.
        I have time to discuss gallium interface changes so things are more easily and naturally implementable for all drivers.
        I have time for eating (sometimes I skip that though).
        I have time for other hobbies like sports to compensate for the hours I spend sitting in front of a screen.

        I guess the fact that the day just has 24 hours and the weekend only 2 days proves that I'm lazy.

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        • #49
          And I have time to post on phoronix forums ... something doesn't add up.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by calim View Post
            And I have time to post on phoronix forums ... something doesn't add up.
            Start multitasking... in a single instance or hypertasking. With a good scheduler and reliable cache : )

            Thats said, I respect your scheduler and thankfully disconnect. More lazy here means more busy elsewhere, hope I introduced something worthy to your cache though...

            regards

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            • #51
              Originally posted by brosis View Post
              You protest against removal of highly unstable high-explosive bomb (because it causes X freeze, crashes and kernel panics unless lucky), because you eventually were lucky enough. You sure don't care about other people experiences, only your own case settles matters.
              If you have problems with the nouveau drivers you file a bug, and if it was causing massive problems then it would indeed be disabled in mainline, you can be certain of that. Obviously it's not, only retards like you who doesn't understand the difference between development versions and tested versions which is what is pushed through repositories.

              I'll try to explain since you are so f***ing stupid, currently Michael are testing the unreleased kernel 3.9 version which is currently being TESTED for REGRESSIONS, NO distro is using it.

              Then in a while when 3.9 is finally released, still NO DISTRO WILL USE IT IN THEIR STABLE REPOS, it will go through both UPSTREAM and DOWNSTREAM TESTING, and bugs will invariably be found, fixes will be made, and then perhaps by 3.9.1-3.9.3 or something depending on how many bugs/regressions are found, a BLEEDING EDGE distro like Arch may switch to 3.9.X. So when Michael states that the latest 3.9 GIT kernel version he is using for testing has regressions, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ON PEOPLE'S MACHINES UNLESS THEY ARE TESTING NEW KERNELS/DEVELOPMENT VERSIONS OF NOUVEAU/MESA/INSERT COMPONENT HERE. Do you UNDERSTAND?

              Originally posted by brosis View Post
              They dont have "VERY LIMITED manpower", they care SHIT about manpower calculations.
              WTF is 'manpower calculations'? And of course they have very limited manpower given what they try to achive, which is to reverse engineer the functionality contained in a large range of graphic cards. Where the hell do idiots like you come from? Is there a online troll course where the prerequisite is that you have to be really stupid to apply?

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              • #52
                Originally posted by wargames View Post
                I'm sorry, but YOU are full of bullshit. You are using Blender and are probably refusing to use the Cycles rendering engine CUDA acceleration because of what ? code purity ?
                If you read what I wrote I stated I did 3d sculpting and modeling, rendering is not what I'm interested in (I'm sculpting stuff which I want to 3d print). Had the performance I get when doing 3d sculpting/modeling been underwhelming then I would certainly have switched to the proprietary driver, and I think nothing less of anyone who prefers it, but the performance is perfectly fine with Nouveau so 'I' see no reason to install the binary blob.

                Originally posted by wargames View Post
                You need to grow up and realise there are programs distributed in binary form out there.
                Oh really? Like all the humble bundle and other games I own, what a big surprise, tell me more!

                I have no problem with binary programs, but I certainly prefer open source, particularly when it comes to code which is needed for my machine to operate, not to mention how convenient it is to have everything supported out-of-the-box. Nouveau gives me this, and I am very thankful for their excellent work, and I hope that in the future I will be able to have those benefits under Haiku aswell.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                  Then again, having docs may very well raise interest in the project. It wouldn't look like doing things blindly any more.
                  Agreed but good luck trying to get something as simple as the register command documentation out of nVidia...they'd say they cannot release that due to IP issues.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by DeepDayze View Post
                    Agreed but good luck trying to get something as simple as the register command documentation out of nVidia...they'd say they cannot release that due to IP issues.
                    Even AMD doesn't release anything like that.

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                    • #55
                      @brent

                      Curious, I thought I have all these register headers in my kernel source, saying which registers are which. And a set of PDFs documenting most of them in more detail.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by curaga View Post
                        @brent
                        Curious, I thought I have all these register headers in my kernel source, saying which registers are which.
                        That's not documentation. The list is both incomplete and undocumented. Source code almost never qualifies as documentation, and the radeon driver is no exception.

                        And a set of PDFs documenting most of them in more detail.
                        For some very old GPUs. There is no documentation for R700 and up and it's hardly useful for contemporary GPUs.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by brent View Post
                          For some very old GPUs. There is no documentation for R700 and up and it's hardly useful for contemporary GPUs.
                          Actually the main docs are for "r6xx/r7xx" and they are still fairly useful today. The major changes from one generation to the next were in the shader ISA, and new documents have been released for each new generation. Registers do move around (different offsets) but the source code headers cover that fairly well.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                            If you have problems with the nouveau drivers you file a bug, and if it was causing massive problems then it would indeed be disabled in mainline, you can be certain of that. Obviously it's not, only retards like you who doesn't understand the difference between development versions and tested versions which is what is pushed through repositories.

                            I'll try to explain since you are so f***ing stupid, currently Michael are testing the unreleased kernel 3.9 version which is currently being TESTED for REGRESSIONS, NO distro is using it.

                            Then in a while when 3.9 is finally released, still NO DISTRO WILL USE IT IN THEIR STABLE REPOS, it will go through both UPSTREAM and DOWNSTREAM TESTING, and bugs will invariably be found, fixes will be made, and then perhaps by 3.9.1-3.9.3 or something depending on how many bugs/regressions are found, a BLEEDING EDGE distro like Arch may switch to 3.9.X. So when Michael states that the latest 3.9 GIT kernel version he is using for testing has regressions, THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN ON PEOPLE'S MACHINES UNLESS THEY ARE TESTING NEW KERNELS/DEVELOPMENT VERSIONS OF NOUVEAU/MESA/INSERT COMPONENT HERE. Do you UNDERSTAND?


                            WTF is 'manpower calculations'? And of course they have very limited manpower given what they try to achive, which is to reverse engineer the functionality contained in a large range of graphic cards. Where the hell do idiots like you come from? Is there a online troll course where the prerequisite is that you have to be really stupid to apply?
                            I tested nouveau under Debian Stable.
                            Also, testing versions are usually much more stable than "Stable" ones, due to commited bugfixes.

                            And I alreadly cleared up things with calim, so rant off. I am not against nouveau, I am against developers behaving like buddies next door and expecting driver quality to be something different.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by brent View Post
                              The list is both incomplete and undocumented.
                              The only missing registers AFAIK are for (patented) features not yet exposed, and some they don't consider important. BTW Bridgman I still want those performance counters

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                                Also, testing versions are usually much more stable than "Stable" ones, due to commited bugfixes.
                                You seem very confused. Testing is where, as the name implies, 'testing' of new code is done, it's here (and of course upstream) that bugs are found and (hopefully) fixed.

                                Once these found bugs have been fixed and the code seems to work proper, it will be moved into 'stable'. So I seriously doubt that code from testing is 'usually' more stable than code from stable in Debian, it defies logic.

                                Do you have anything to back this up with, like some Debian developers telling people that if they want stability they should use 'testing'?

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