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Nouveau vs. NVIDIA Linux Comparison Shows Shortcomings

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  • #31
    Umm....

    I bought Nvidia's hardware and use the vendor's Linux driver because I want the best performance possible. Did I do something bad? (I could swear I paid for all this stuff.)

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Larian View Post
      I bought Nvidia's hardware and use the vendor's Linux driver because I want the best performance possible. Did I do something bad? (I could swear I paid for all this stuff.)
      Category "bad" is highly subjective and hence unapplicable!

      What you did is pay for solution with clear definitions.
      Performance over specific LIMITED time and LIMITED features (by means of driver support for specific OSes with single license to use this driver in binary form) as mentioned in Nvidia EULA. Nothing more.

      Opensource is CLEARLY MUCH MORE demanding and not covered by your Nvidia agreement.

      Originally posted by finalzone View Post
      nouveau driver is running fine on a rare Geforce GTX 460 v2 (Fermi based) for casual use or some hindi games.
      It will be a matter of time Nvidia will have no choice but to assist nouveau developer due to competition.
      Happens ONLY if you support NON-nvidia now. So...
      PS.
      Would also be nice if they fire "for-fun" guys straightaway and driver actually stabilizes.
      All this "fun" in official Linux results in nothing more but damage to reputation.
      Last edited by brosis; 04-24-2013, 01:36 AM.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by brosis View Post
        Happens ONLY if you support NON-nvidia now. So...
        PS.
        Would also be nice if they fire "for-fun" guys straightaway and driver actually stabilizes.
        All this "fun" in official Linux results in nothing more but damage to reputation.
        Which I do with my AMD E350 powered laptop (running on FOSS driver on daily basis) and active participation of test-day in Fedora Project.

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        • #34
          @brosis

          uvd/vdpau is not fully compatible to current apps - most likely you did not test it yourself. It works somehow with mplayer/vlc (via vdpau-video wrapper with extra symlink), has problems with flash 11.2 (youtube) when ads are played in front of a hd video, does not support deinterlace and does not work with xbmc at all. But basically it will be very interesting when those issues are resolved - especially for apus or older systems with amd hd 4x00 onboard - those do not even work with fglrx with current xservers anymore. It currently works best using mplayer to play progressive content.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Larian View Post
            I bought Nvidia's hardware and use the vendor's Linux driver because I want the best performance possible. Did I do something bad? (I could swear I paid for all this stuff.)
            Not even slightly: your card = your choice. Other people simply prefer to use open source drivers.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Larian View Post
              I bought Nvidia's hardware and use the vendor's Linux driver because I want the best performance possible. Did I do something bad? (I could swear I paid for all this stuff.)
              I too really don't understand why Nouveau exists as a consumer level driver. If you spent good money on a graphics card, why would you then software cripple it? I understand if you are interested in driver development, or graphics card hardware, but the vast majority of people who use nouveau aren't. So what do you get out of Nouveau? It's open-source you say, but unless you plan on developing using it - why do you give a shit!?

              I can't see the difference between buying a GTX560 Ti and using Nouveau, and buying a high-end i7 and downclocking it.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Subliminal message: "We don't care if this driver works at all"
                Resolution: Workaround allows to work around the problem, so people can still work, waiting for a real fix. Ignoring workarounds equals to not caring about anyone who uses the software. Thats a kick in userbase butt.
                The subliminal message was more along the lines of "If it doesn't work, fix it !" I'm trying to get people to contribute but they're awfully resistant. Maybe that's not the right way. But then, if everything worked, who would feel the need to ... and having a workaround lowers the pain and hence the incentive to find a proper fix. NOTE: My opinion, not that of the whole nouveau team.

                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Subliminal message: "We don't care about quality of this driver at all"
                Resolution: This is as "hobby" as it gets.
                That was just speaking for myself. I do care about the quality, but I'm restricting myself to working on mesa, so I'll rarely fix the kinds of things that need to be done in the kernel. That's the other guy's job. Unless it affects my card then I can't resist.

                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Subliminal message: "We don't care about Linux user base. They can go to hell."
                Well, sometimes I feel like that. When the userbase tell me I'm spending so much free time on something pointless I get angry at them.

                Originally posted by brosis View Post
                Resolution: If someone refuses even to accept free cards in order to make Linux more attractive to new users, he definately gives a brick about Linux userbase.
                Accepting cards means accepting responsibility to get them working. I'm having a hard time resisting to work on nouveau and focusing on the things I'm *supposed* to be doing already, if I had users' cards lying around pressuring me to fix them that'd be even harder.
                Last edited by calim; 04-24-2013, 06:07 AM.

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                • #38
                  calim, to get back to the GT 240 issue - why are you apparently opposed to accepting a workaround? I know that sometimes it's not wise to include hacks, because with a workaround in place there is less pressure to come up with an actual solution. But this has been broken for what now, two years?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by brent View Post
                    calim, to get back to the GT 240 issue - why are you apparently opposed to accepting a workaround? I know that sometimes it's not wise to include hacks, because with a workaround in place there is less pressure to come up with an actual solution. But this has been broken for what now, two years?
                    Just out of curiosity, since I don't have any Nvidia hardware; when you pass nouveau.noaccel=1 to the boot command line does it also end up disabling gnome-shell and forcibly reverting the desktop to fallback mode?

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                    • #40
                      Not anymore - typically, llvmpipe will be used.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by brosis View Post
                        [B]
                        Subliminal message: "We don't code, we don't improve, we don't want to organize anything. We just hang around, breaking stuff for fun. And we like to make fun of AMD developers. Because, they, unlike us, actually write STABLE CODE. We - either write mess, or don't write anything. Hell, we better off watch TV drinkin beers. Linux sucks anyways --.. and not because of us! Rly."
                        Resolution: -

                        Suggestion:
                        Linus - Please REMOVE NOUVEAU out of kernel. Reiserfs is much more worthy of attention than this.
                        Distributions - under NO WAY build or include nouveau. Use either VESA or nvidia. This is sure way to immediately kill your userbase with nvidia cards.
                        Developers - unless you want to join Nvidia, its much better to join forces who actually CARE about code they write. That means on x86 - Intel or AMD.
                        Nvidia users - under NO CIRCUMSTANCE donate your hardware to nouveau. Please, SELL it. At least, you will not waste your money.
                        LOL, that was funny


                        Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                        Bullshit, I've been using Nouveau exclusively for the past 6 months and everything has been running smoothly on both my machines (9600GT/9800GT), including 3d modeling/sculpting in Blender. Obviously I can get better performance of the NVidia binary but Nouveau is certainly 'usable'. .
                        I'm sorry, but YOU are full of bullshit. You are using Blender and are probably refusing to use the Cycles rendering engine CUDA acceleration because of what ? code purity ? You need to grow up and realise there are programs distributed in binary form out there. NVIDIA is doing a great job with their driver, to the point it is the only viable solution for GPU acceleration on Linux at the moment.

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                        • #42
                          @calim, thanks for responding! Thats a spirit responsibility already, so I am already gratefull to you!

                          Originally posted by calim View Post
                          The subliminal message was more along the lines of "If it doesn't work, fix it !" I'm trying to get people to contribute but they're awfully resistant. Maybe that's not the right way. But then, if everything worked, who would feel the need to ... and having a workaround lowers the pain and hence the incentive to find a proper fix. NOTE: My opinion, not that of the whole nouveau team.
                          Not everyone is kernel developer.
                          But nearly everyone who owns the hardware would prefer opensource drivers.
                          The majority can contribute by other ways. If you find those ways, outline them clearly and advertise that efficiently directly to hardware card owners, that involves visiting every major OS meeting point, that is supported by your driver, and posting a clear message.
                          Then, let the users carry the decision.

                          Originally posted by calim View Post
                          That was just speaking for myself. I do care about the quality, but I'm restricting myself to working on mesa, so I'll rarely fix the kinds of things that need to be done in the kernel. That's the other guy's job. Unless it affects my card then I can't resist.
                          Your team spirit is sure way bugged and waiting for a fix.
                          Without team spirit, you can't build a solid house, every wall will be different.

                          Originally posted by calim View Post
                          Well, sometimes I feel like that. When the userbase tell me I'm spending so much free time on something pointless I get angry at them.
                          You should be clear that you spend your time on what you consider to be right for you and nobody can influence that.
                          However, even if you do "real job" or "develop nouveau", it doesn't matter - you accept responsibility for exchange of monetary compensation.

                          If you do this purely for own enjoyment, please be respectfull to users,.. or at least have some mercy and do NOT drop unstable code upstream.
                          And if you lack any motivation to switch hobby to job and unstable to production stable, please ask hardware owners. They are the ones who want stable code, so they help you. Just talk to them.

                          Originally posted by calim View Post
                          Accepting cards means accepting responsibility to get them working. I'm having a hard time resisting to work on nouveau and focusing on the things I'm *supposed* to be doing already, if I had users' cards lying around pressuring me to fix them that'd be even harder.
                          Under no condition should acceptal of hardware be bound to requirement to make it working.
                          Perhaps you (or nouveau) should make it clear, that hardware donations form only the hardware park for the team. Nothing else.
                          Donations are always free will! But, of course, if the project is NOT moving in perceptable direction, the justification to donate (by smearing the wheels of the project) will fade accordingly.

                          If you have "no time", "I have better things to do" etc, which is adult word for "I am lazy", please elaborate on what you need to motivate you.
                          Because you either work on it or its left broken. I am sure many many hardware owners at distribution forums WILL support you, but those support IS binding, so be realistic and let users decide if they accept your price.

                          Thank you!

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by brosis View Post
                            If you have "no time", "I have better things to do" etc, which is adult word for "I am lazy", please elaborate on what you need to motivate you. Because you either work on it or its left broken. I am sure many many hardware owners at distribution forums WILL support you, but those support IS binding, so be realistic and let users decide if they accept your price.
                            "no time" in no way equates to being lazy. There are a limited number of hours in the day, and sleeping, eating and working your employer generally take priority. No matter how much I want to work on/contribute to X, Y and Z, there's a limit to how much time I can devote to them.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by archibald View Post
                              "no time" in no way equates to being lazy. There are a limited number of hours in the day, and sleeping, eating and working your employer generally take priority. No matter how much I want to work on/contribute to X, Y and Z, there's a limit to how much time I can devote to them.
                              Yes, "no time" equals "lazy" polite form. Its psychology proved reference.
                              Young children say "I don't like it" meaning they would do something else.
                              Adults say "I don't have time" meaning they would do something else.
                              "Lazy here" means "busy elsewhere", including doing "nothing".

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by brent View Post
                                calim, to get back to the GT 240 issue - why are you apparently opposed to accepting a workaround? I know that sometimes it's not wise to include hacks, because with a workaround in place there is less pressure to come up with an actual solution. But this has been broken for what now, two years?
                                For most cards there seem to be people with issues ... my GTX680 works perfectly fine, for Michael it seems not to. Should we disable acceleration for everything except, say, whatever works for him ? And how would we notice if things started working [again] ? Maybe we should, to make it obvious to us how broken things really are. But not my decision. I'll ask, at least about the 240.

                                Anyway, you're right we should focus more on stability and be nicer to users. But it's hard, especially when you're on a feature frenzy (need. to. get. reclocking/<GL extension>. working. argh !)

                                I guess a test lab that regularly checks if all cards are still working would be nice. And someone to fix them when they aren't. I'll hire someone for that in case I win the lottery.
                                Last edited by calim; 04-24-2013, 01:02 PM.

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