Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Nouveau vs. NVIDIA Linux Comparison Shows Shortcomings

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by calim View Post
    That's not a fix, it's a workaround. If you had a fix, we might just care.
    It's certainly a workaround if acceleration is important. But consider Live CDs and the like. These simply won't boot properly on these GPUs right now, so you can't even install a modern Linux-based OS! No acceleration is still preferable to crashing. I just don't see the point in not applying the workaround, after this has been broken for such a long time with no proper fixes in sight.

    Comment


    • #17
      Wow, I didn't realise it was a developer! Oh my gosh...
      Michael should really post an article about this...


      Subliminal message: "We don't care if this driver works at all"
      Resolution: Workaround allows to work around the problem, so people can still work, waiting for a real fix. Ignoring workarounds equals to not caring about anyone who uses the software. Thats a kick in userbase butt.
      Originally posted by calim View Post
      That's not a fix, it's a workaround. If you had a fix, we might just care.

      Subliminal message: "We don't care about quality of this driver at all"
      Resolution: This is as "hobby" as it gets.
      Originally posted by calim View Post
      Myself I really don't care (well, I do, but not to the point where I'd do something about it), my ~2000 hours of wasted free time on this project would be even more wasted (on the personal level anyway)

      Subliminal message: "We don't care about Linux user base. They can go to hell."
      Resolution: If someone refuses even to accept free cards in order to make Linux more attractive to new users, he definately gives a brick about Linux userbase. Expect nothing even close to serious from this crowd. The code he pushes this way is "mess" in all forms.
      Originally posted by calim View Post
      Myself I really don't care (well, I do, but not to the point where I'd do something about it), my ~2000 hours of wasted free time on this project would be even more wasted (on the personal level anyway) if I'd spent them with the annoying bugs of users with cards I don't have (which is the factor that makes fixing things really hard, but don't suggest sending cards to me I don't have the time or nerve), instead of focusing on the fun stuff.

      Subliminal message: "Our driver will always be constantly broken"
      Resolution: -
      Originally posted by calim View Post
      It's either progress or stability, and we seem to focus very much on progress over stability overall.

      Subliminal message: "We don't code, we don't improve, we don't want to organize anything. We just hang around, breaking stuff for fun. And we like to make fun of AMD developers. Because, they, unlike us, actually write STABLE CODE. We - either write mess, or don't write anything. Hell, we better off watch TV drinkin beers. Linux sucks anyways --.. and not because of us! Rly."
      Resolution: -
      Originally posted by calim View Post
      Of course, "no docs" is just an excuse, even with docs things wouldn't be moving along much faster at this point because there's no one there to do the time-consuming part, i.e. actually implementing things. That's their biggest advantage, AMD hires devs (and what ever happened to "the community will write the driver" ?)


      Suggestion:
      Linus - Please REMOVE NOUVEAU out of kernel. Reiserfs is much more worthy of attention than this.
      Distributions - under NO WAY build or include nouveau. Use either VESA or nvidia. This is sure way to immediately kill your userbase with nvidia cards.
      Developers - unless you want to join Nvidia, its much better to join forces who actually CARE about code they write. That means on x86 - Intel or AMD.
      Nvidia users - under NO CIRCUMSTANCE donate your hardware to nouveau. Please, SELL it. At least, you will not waste your money.
      Last edited by brosis; 04-23-2013, 08:41 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Kano View Post
        Until powermanagement is fully working with every oss driver i would always prefer binary drivers - but radeon is interesting now too because of the new uvd/vdpau support that does not exist in the binary one.

        http://kanotix.com/files/fix/tmp/tf2/tf2-benchmarks.txt
        Kano, powermanagement works with radeon. Its automatical powerstate switching that is not implemented or even better load-based powerswitching. But user can manually switch the powerstates.
        Perhaps you mean "powermanagement is complete" instead of "fully working", because its fully working, but is not complete featurewise ...

        Comment


        • #19
          lol

          let the trolling begin.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by brosis View Post
            Kano, powermanagement works with radeon. Its automatical powerstate switching that is not implemented or even better load-based powerswitching. But user can manually switch the powerstates.
            Perhaps you mean "powermanagement is complete" instead of "fully working", because its fully working, but is not complete featurewise ...
            I don't think that's true on the newer APU parts - they aren't allowed to run at full speed at all, because of PM issues.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by wargames View Post
              Nouveau is basically wasted man power. They really need documentation on how Nvidia graphic cards work if they want to make something remotely usable.
              Bullshit, I've been using Nouveau exclusively for the past 6 months and everything has been running smoothly on both my machines (9600GT/9800GT), including 3d modeling/sculpting in Blender. Obviously I can get better performance of the NVidia binary but Nouveau is certainly 'usable'.

              Apart from 3d stuff I do alot of 2d stuff aswell as some video editing, and Nouveau is perfectly competent for that. No, I do not play typical AAA games, but most of the indie bundle games I've played have ran just fine, though some of they have had graphical glitches. Was quite a while ago though so I should probably check to see if those have been fixed by now.

              And as for the performance differences, as has been repeated over and over again, Nouveau operates at the lowest clock frequency while the proprietary drivers re-clock at higher frequencies when you are running 3d intesive applications. The Nouveau devs are working on re-clocking but since this can be cause damage to your card unless done correctly they can't enable it until they are sure (within reason) that it actually works.

              Most definitely the proprietary driver will still come out on top and by a good margin, and for those who wants/needs the best possible performance it's great that the NVidia driver exists, for my needs Nouveau is already adequate, and with re-clocking enabled sometime in the future it will be even more so.

              And finally one more thing, while Linux is 'blessed' with proprietary driver support from the likes of Nvidia / AMD, there are other platforms which will NEVER have any official support, one of those which I'm very fond of is Haiku, and here Nouveau serves a huge purpose as a possible means to support NVidia 3d hardware acceleration in the future.

              Originally posted by wargames View Post
              Of course the Nouveau team is free to do whatever they want with their time, but in the end they will realise they have wasted a precious time in their life.
              Alot less than you wasted with this worthless post of yours, as I and many others out there are already finding great worth in their work.

              We all would like to have open source Nvidia drivers, because they make great graphics cards, but this is not going to work.
              Again bullshit, it is already WORKING.

              Comment


              • #22
                @brosis

                Call it how you like but when something is not enabled by default and works automatically only a few users will even notice it existance. I personally could use it but i have to think about the Kanotix user base as well - even if it is possible they usually dont use it. I do NOT intend to tell em how it works when i provide already binary drivers that can do the job better - it would be completely lost time to do so when it is not even 100% sure that it works.

                Comment


                • #23
                  @XorEaxEax

                  It is incorrect that nouveau always uses the lowest clockspeed. It just uses the clockspeed thats set by the vga bios on boot when you don't enforce reclocking. That can be a higher clock as well than the lowest one and could be different from vendor to vendor even for the same model.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kano View Post
                    @brosis

                    Call it how you like but when something is not enabled by default and works automatically only a few users will even notice it existance. I personally could use it but i have to think about the Kanotix user base as well - even if it is possible they usually dont use it. I do NOT intend to tell em how it works when i provide already binary drivers that can do the job better - it would be completely lost time to do so when it is not even 100% sure that it works.
                    If you put "low" profile in udev and set profile to "high" for applications from a list if they appear in process list, that would already be "automatical powerstate switching".

                    This vs binary drivers,.. unlike you, I would choose this and stay with radeon instead. I mean, with nvidia blob you can't even force low powerstate. So its not "complete" either.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                      Again bullshit, it is already WORKING.
                      I tested this:
                      6100 IGP - crashes, composite unstable
                      8300 IGP - crashes
                      9800 GT - stable

                      So, it comes in one line with your experience and results from Michael test. Nouveau is russian roullete. But inverted one - 5 bullets in 6 load drum. I'd say, radeon is normal russian roulette 1/6 instead.
                      Consider yourself lucky, no? Eheh.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by brosis View Post
                        I tested this:
                        6100 IGP - crashes, composite unstable
                        8300 IGP - crashes
                        9800 GT - stable
                        So because it doesn't work on some hardware, people like me who have hardware for which it DOES work should NOT be able to enjoy this and instead everyone should drop Nouveau? What kind of moron are you?

                        They have VERY LIMITED manpower, what they have accomplished despite being so few and working on their spare time with is goddamn incredible.

                        They can't fix/work on every driver AT ONCE, during development bugs will creep in and cause regressions in previously working drivers, which is why you don't use development drivers unless you are doing testing.

                        Unlike Michael, I don't randomly build daily Nouveau development snapshots from GIT and expect them to be bug free, and then write articles which makes it seem as if Nouveau is constantly breaking on people's desktops, which is not the case as people get their driver updates from their distro repositories once they've gone through some testing.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          @brosis

                          I don't know how to do that with udev, maybe it works with systemd, but thats not available with Debian in a recent version (udev is therefore outdated as well). But that is still something that should NOT be done by udev IHMO. If you only own 1 card and you like a driver so much I am sure you can optimize it for your needs. But instead of forcing radeon to lowest state i could remove the card as well, all my systems have got Intel gfx too. I currently switch cards depending on what i want to do:

                          a) Play Serious Sam 3 -> Use any fast gfx card, Fglrx however needs 2x alt-enter and my hd 5670 is a bit slow for that game, so maybe better gtx 295
                          b) Play Killing Floor -> use Fglrx (hd 5670) because Nvidia cards suffer from weird rendering issues
                          c) Use HDMI audio -> use Intel onboard (hd 4000) or Nvidia (gt 630 oem) - because Fglrx has got issues with HDMI after playing some minutes with some games
                          d) Test uvd/vdpau -> use Radeon (hd 5670 currently)
                          e) Test xvba -> use Fglrx (hd 5670 or 4550)
                          f) Play Source engine game -> try any gfx solution as i mainly use only the timedemo feature (i dont like TF2 much, i have got HL2DM but i dont like that game as well, maybe i play a bit longer when L4D2 is available)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                            So because it doesn't work on some hardware, people like me who have hardware for which it DOES work should NOT be able to enjoy this and instead everyone should drop Nouveau? What kind of moron are you?

                            They have VERY LIMITED manpower, what they have accomplished despite being so few and working on their spare time with is goddamn incredible.

                            They can't fix/work on every driver AT ONCE, during development bugs will creep in and cause regressions in previously working drivers, which is why you don't use development drivers unless you are doing testing.

                            Unlike Michael, I don't randomly build daily Nouveau development snapshots from GIT and expect them to be bug free, and then write articles which makes it seem as if Nouveau is constantly breaking on people's desktops, which is not the case as people get their driver updates from their distro repositories once they've gone through some testing.
                            A survivor of inverted russian roulette calls me moron, because I am against such testing on people.
                            You protest against removal of highly unstable high-explosive bomb (because it causes X freeze, crashes and kernel panics unless lucky), because you eventually were lucky enough. You sure don't care about other people experiences, only your own case settles matters.

                            Maybe you get some different card, blow your ass from nouveau, reread developer (and not your own dream) comment here and reconsider my position?

                            They dont have "VERY LIMITED manpower", they care SHIT about manpower calculations.

                            Perhaps at least enable if for devices who actually work, with testing done UPSTREAM and not by distributions. BECAUSE DISTRIBUTIONS CAN'T DO THAT.

                            Oh, I forgot, it ain't possible, because all nouveau developers are busy at are "creating fun". Not card testing. Not coding. Not stability checks. Just carrying a bomb in the public and declaring it to be safe because you had nothing else but luck. Moron.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Kano View Post
                              @brosis

                              I don't know how to do that with udev, maybe it works with systemd, but thats not available with Debian in a recent version (udev is therefore outdated as well). But that is still something that should NOT be done by udev IHMO. If you only own 1 card and you like a driver so much I am sure you can optimize it for your needs. But instead of forcing radeon to lowest state i could remove the card as well, all my systems have got Intel gfx too. I currently switch cards depending on what i want to do:

                              a) Play Serious Sam 3 -> Use any fast gfx card, Fglrx however needs 2x alt-enter and my hd 5670 is a bit slow for that game, so maybe better gtx 295
                              b) Play Killing Floor -> use Fglrx (hd 5670) because Nvidia cards suffer from weird rendering issues
                              c) Use HDMI audio -> use Intel onboard (hd 4000) or Nvidia (gt 630 oem) - because Fglrx has got issues with HDMI after playing some minutes with some games
                              d) Test uvd/vdpau -> use Radeon (hd 5670 currently)
                              e) Test xvba -> use Fglrx (hd 5670 or 4550)
                              f) Play Source engine game -> try any gfx solution as i mainly use only the timedemo feature (i dont like TF2 much, i have got HL2DM but i dont like that game as well, maybe i play a bit longer when L4D2 is available)
                              The udev can set default policy if he finds radeon card.
                              That would be "profile", "low".
                              Then a daemon can be spawned that will watch process list against user-defined list of applications. If the application is found, it sets profile to high and watches for it to kill, otherwise exits.
                              Pretty much HAL polling logic here, but sure way can be optimized.

                              No way its as efficient as automatic power mode management by closed source nvidia blob, but hey, the driver is opensource and one of the most advanced ones that also have powerfull hardware already available.

                              You recommend fglrx for a,b,f which is due to 3D performance, which is what I agree. But I think the performance will eventually be there with radeon.
                              Video playback d, radeon already capable.
                              HDMI audio c radeon should be capable, we even have had a developer for this feature on forums asking to submit bug if it does not work.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                nouveau driver is running fine on a rare Geforce GTX 460 v2 (Fermi based) for casual use or some hindi games.
                                It will be a matter of time Nvidia will have no choice but to assist nouveau developer due to competition.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X