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Bickering Continues About NVIDIA Using DMA-BUF

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  • Originally posted by johnc View Post
    The only way to do it would be if Linux was huge and NVIDIA depended on it in a big way, then there could be some leverage. But as it is now, 1% market share makes the idea financially unsound.
    Stop trolling, NVidia is not supporting Linux for the ~1% or ~3% or whatever in between represents the Linux desktop market share. They are supporting Linux because Linux is absoloutely dominant in HPC where GPU's are heavily utilized, just as in the 3D/SFX markets where Linux is also huge.

    Why do you think NVidia keeps up-to-date drivers with great CUDA and OpenCL support for Linux? For all the Linux games on utilizing those technologies? Of course not, those technologies are however heavily in use in the aforementioned markets, of course HPC in particular.

    And these markets are getting even more important for discrete GPU vendors like NVidia as the end user desktop is moving away from discrete GPU's to GPGPU solutions. Also since NVidia can't get a licence to produce their own GPGPU solutions on the x86 architecture the x86-based user desktop is becoming a dead market for them as their days there are numbered.

    Of course they have the ARM platform which they are now focusing on, and the future battle on mobile devices between Intel's new low power offerings versus ARM will be interesting to watch. Personally I'm rooting for ARM for no other reason than that I really want competition.

    And just so that those who think NVidia 'rules' the desktop, here are some 2012 first quarter numbers to ponder:

    http://jonpeddie.com/publications/market_watch/

    Comment


    • Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
      I've been using Nouveau exclusively since the beginning of this year and I'm even using it to do 3d sculpting in Blender, so stop spreading your bullshit.
      well, i should have defined that in more detail. Noveau has 3d support, yes. Have you tried advanced games with it ? Have your tried unigine benchmarks/games ? Wine ? Beside that, every tried hardware video decoding ? VDPAU ?
      I guess you invested some money in your nvidia card and everybody doing this is glad to have the blob to be able to really utilize the card !

      Cudos to the noveau devs, they surely do a great job.

      But right now, buying a powerful nvidia card and then using noveau is , to use your words, bullshit !

      Comment


      • Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
        We can only get along if we respect each other. Per definition "proprietary" is "owned, ruled". Per definition "GPL" is "open and protected against closing". If proprietary tries to take over GPL code, GPL is enforced the way it was designed.

        We can't get along so long we try to enslave friends. This is what "proprietary" does to survive.
        I get that you posted your video a bit ironic or so, but the point is wrong, its not about a needy guy who does not want to share, the opposite is true, they dont want to share (for free) closed source most of the time. but that only as a side note and even if they want to share for now money its kind of a trojan horse thing, that enslaves your "friends" ^^


        But to your wayland point, are they able to support it without a free driver lisense wise? As example they cant use gallium3d as far as I know because galliums lisense forbits unfree drivers to use it. But its a bad choke than that they will not support it, maybe it takes very long time, like it took nvidia also at some api changes 6 months or 1 year till you could use a newer x-server with it. But wayland will become preinstlaled on many linux-systems in next few years I guess. So they would say, you have to first pre-install first linux with a ncurses installer or something like that ^^ before you can than manually install x-server because you did choose the wrong grafics card, that would be funny. Or more likely, the installers would use X and then would give you the choice something like do you use a nvidia card? or a detection and then if that hits yes, it would install x-server and if not it would install wayland, would be funny. Go for it retarded nvidia.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
          But to your wayland point, are they able to support it without a free driver lisense wise? As example they cant use gallium3d as far as I know because galliums lisense forbits unfree drivers to use it. But its a bad choke than that they will not support it, maybe it takes very long time, like it took nvidia also at some api changes 6 months or 1 year till you could use a newer x-server with it. But wayland will become preinstlaled on many linux-systems in next few years I guess. So they would say, you have to first pre-install first linux with a ncurses installer or something like that ^^ before you can than manually install x-server because you did choose the wrong grafics card, that would be funny. Or more likely, the installers would use X and then would give you the choice something like do you use a nvidia card? or a detection and then if that hits yes, it would install x-server and if not it would install wayland, would be funny. Go for it retarded nvidia.
          Yes, the wayland it very new and green, but I just choose it as an example. They will support wayland, but only when and if they decide to do it. This is exactly like microsoft and is the reason why linux grows. Users are treated as consumers, not prosumers. They are dependent on decisions above. GPL is the reaction to fight this.

          They can stay closed source, but they must understand that this model also comes with disadvantages and inevitable problems, exactly like the one we have with DMA-BUF, and that it will force them to make decisions and/or workarounds.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
            But still, desktop Linux as we know it depends on NVIDIA.
            Since when?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
              Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
              Is this the true level of literacy among open source faggots?
              Oh look, another troll. Or likely just one of the already existing using another account.
              heh, or a douchy condescending scumbag from russian forums like linux.org.ru and opennet.ru, who managed to learn some lingo for himself and now is being proud as fuck about that accomplishment.
              desire to suck Nvidia's silicon dick is the strongest in those ones, from what i've seen. as a desire to praise "most free" licenses, like BSD one, without actually using software licenced with it for the most part.
              with those levels of douchiness, he maybe even be into some of those IT workers certification programmes from proprietary vendors like MS©,a straight-up MSP Fucker® or just an average angry little psycho, who bought himself an Optimus laptop, but at some point in life figured, that Windows® isn't very user-friendly and reliable, if you want some real work done.

              but that's enought honours for a douche, fuck him alongside Nvidia, i'd say.
              accommodating tech market oligopolist's desires isn't kinda compromise Free Software supporters do from an excessive kindness of the heart.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ворот93 View Post
                If NVIDIA turns their back on Linux kernel, [...]
                AMD and Intel will be very happy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by asdx
                  I think Nvidia right now is in a position where they can't just ignore opening their source anymore, I mean, Intel and AMD is catching up very rapidly and they support Linux/FOSS, they have open source graphics drivers, they provide specifications, etc.

                  Also, Nvidia must understand they will be facing more issues like the DMA-BUF situation, where they can't use existing components due to licensing, etc. They will have more problems when Wayland becomes the de-facto standard, or when UEFI (Secure boot) gets more widespread, and probably a lot of other things that I can't think of right now. Anyone else knows of other things that will block them eventually?

                  Their binary blob won't scale much more, they need to re-think the situation and make new decisions. Either work with the Linux developers and provide specifications or their source code or simply stop giving the "support" they give now with the binary blob, it won't last much longer anyway.

                  -> It is not possible for nvidia to open the source of their nvidia driver. thats a fact. To use some of your words: "Come over it". There driver shares 90% of the code with the windows one.
                  -> providing specs surely will help in the long run, but we don't want a solution that hits in 3 years.. Even with specs i doubt noveau can ever reach a level were it is on par with the nvidia blob, simply to limited resources etc.. etc..

                  Imho, the kernel dev's shouls dimply change the export of that function. It's entirely possible that its also not legal to use dma-buf even if the export symbols is changed, but afaik nvidia already uses some kernel interfaces so they know about the risk.


                  If the situation stays as it is, 2 things could happen:

                  1. Nvidia says "Fuck you" and doesn't care about Optimus on Linux anymore -> Bad for the users
                  2. Nvidia decides to implement something in their blob to work around the issue -> Even more propietary things used in the end, instead of a well documented kernel interface


                  So, right now, please tell me, who benefits from the "dma-buf" block ???????????????????


                  The Enduser -> NOOOOOOOOOO
                  Getting rid of propietary things -> NOOOOOOO, even more things could move into the blob


                  Again, who benefits from this decision now??

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by johnc View Post
                    The only way to do it would be if Linux was huge and NVIDIA depended on it in a big way, then there could be some leverage. But as it is now, 1% market share makes the idea financially unsound.
                    /siren

                    the 'market share' argument

                    1% of computers run gnu/linux or some variant of gnu/linux - this is utter bullshit

                    gnu/linux runs on all kinds of systems all over the world from set top boxes to webservers to super computers

                    lets flip this round for a moment...

                    if you count any electronic device with a cpu as a computer what is the percentage of these systems that run say a microsoft operating system?

                    and out of the top 100 most powerful computers in the world what percentage of these run gnu/linux?

                    the 1% figure comes right out of the m$ propaganda department as they only count consumer P.C.s and laptops

                    and as for the legal problem regarding the nvidia way of working with the community - didn't nvidia recently lose a rather lucrative sale due to a chinese company being unable to use the blob?

                    The closed method is wrong and has been proven to be wrong in both financial terms and development terms

                    the free(dom)/open method has created some of the best and most innovative solutions available because it gives individuals and companies the opportunity to develop what is best for them and not what some other company who's interests are in market domination thinks is best for them

                    if you don't like the open drivers then YOU have the opportunity and the tools to make them better suited to your needs

                    ofcourse the morons who are defending nvidias position will not read this let alone have a clue what i'm talking about ....

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by christian_frank View Post
                      -> It is not possible for nvidia to open the source of their nvidia driver. thats a fact. To use some of your words: "Come over it". There driver shares 90% of the code with the windows one.
                      -> providing specs surely will help in the long run, but we don't want a solution that hits in 3 years.. Even with specs i doubt noveau can ever reach a level were it is on par with the nvidia blob, simply to limited resources etc.. etc..

                      Imho, the kernel dev's shouls dimply change the export of that function. It's entirely possible that its also not legal to use dma-buf even if the export symbols is changed, but afaik nvidia already uses some kernel interfaces so they know about the risk.


                      If the situation stays as it is, 2 things could happen:

                      1. Nvidia says "Fuck you" and doesn't care about Optimus on Linux anymore -> Bad for the users
                      2. Nvidia decides to implement something in their blob to work around the issue -> Even more propietary things used in the end, instead of a well documented kernel interface


                      So, right now, please tell me, who benefits from the "dma-buf" block ???????????????????


                      The Enduser -> NOOOOOOOOOO
                      Getting rid of propietary things -> NOOOOOOO, even more things could move into the blob


                      Again, who benefits from this decision now??

                      like i've already said - the nvidia blob licence and the GPL are incompatible. Today this affects the DMA_BUF but tomorrow who knows - the legal issues will continue to reoccur

                      the only solution is to have GPL drivers which already exist and work reasonably well despite the lack of input from nvidia

                      I have a amd gpu on my HTPC using the radeon driver and i must admit i'm pleased and even shocked at how well they work. The intel gpus I have work very well also but they're obviously not nearly as powerful as the amd gpus

                      P.S. what software are people running that require opengl 4.x other than the unigine demos

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by D0pamine View Post
                        /siren

                        the 'market share' argument

                        1% of computers run gnu/linux or some variant of gnu/linux - this is utter bullshit

                        gnu/linux runs on all kinds of systems all over the world from set top boxes to webservers to super computers

                        lets flip this round for a moment...

                        if you count any electronic device with a cpu as a computer what is the percentage of these systems that run say a microsoft operating system?

                        and out of the top 100 most powerful computers in the world what percentage of these run gnu/linux?

                        the 1% figure comes right out of the m$ propaganda department as they only count consumer P.C.s and laptops
                        Except that set top boxes, webservers and supercomputers don't use Nvidia chips and drivers. Neither AMD nor Intel have really opened the guts of their proprietary drivers but instead opted to support the Linux community through documentation. We already have relatively decent drivers provided by the Nouveau project - the problem is that the graphics stack is pretty far behind when it comes to supporting recently introduced OpenGL stuff, like tesselation. We're still stuck with GL 3.0, and we're still a far cry from reaching the performance of the proprietary drivers.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mememe View Post
                          Except that set top boxes, webservers and supercomputers don't use Nvidia chips and drivers. Neither AMD nor Intel have really opened the guts of their proprietary drivers but instead opted to support the Linux community through documentation. We already have relatively decent drivers provided by the Nouveau project - the problem is that the graphics stack is pretty far behind when it comes to supporting recently introduced OpenGL stuff, like tesselation. We're still stuck with GL 3.0, and we're still a far cry from reaching the performance of the proprietary drivers.
                          and the likelyhood of nvidia becoming a supplier of hardware to set top boxes/supercomputers/ect is greatley diminished because of the lack of documentation

                          nobody is suggesting that nvidia, amd, intel and any other hardware mfr should write open drivers or open up their existing code but just give documentation to allow the community to develop their own drivers this is what happens anyway through reverse engineering however you cant expect 0 day support from reverse engineered development nor can you expect it to perform as well as it might

                          and like i said - what software are you running that requires anything above opengl3.x ... i can only think of a couple of things that require even opengl 3.0

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mememe View Post
                            Except that set top boxes, webservers and supercomputers don't use Nvidia chips and drivers. Neither AMD nor Intel have really opened the guts of their proprietary drivers but instead opted to support the Linux community through documentation. We already have relatively decent drivers provided by the Nouveau project - the problem is that the graphics stack is pretty far behind when it comes to supporting recently introduced OpenGL stuff, like tesselation. We're still stuck with GL 3.0, and we're still a far cry from reaching the performance of the proprietary drivers.
                            as far as I know opengl 4 is done now in mesa, because of that they raise their major version number. And of course that works with a free driver, and be it only with the intel one and not the amd one? So your general statements are just not true.

                            about the speed problems, thats also not true, the intel driver is very fast it gives you nearly the full speed this hardware is capable to produce so even again a general statement is not true in this cases.

                            But one thing we see on the amd side, if you are not commiting yourself to the opensource way, and use 99% of the developers to make the closed one better, yes the free one are not so good than the closed one. So just commit to it and you get a really good driver (intel).

                            ok they have some chipsets they did not release but thats no problem just dont buy this anti-freedom-hardware. and they will not sell it again.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                              as far as I know opengl 4 is done now in mesa, because of that they raise their major version number.
                              They just hit 3, not 4. According to the todo list in the repo, most of the 4.0 work hasn't even been started yet.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by christian_frank View Post
                                1. Nvidia says "Fuck you" and doesn't care about Optimus on Linux anymore -> Bad for the users
                                Bad for the minority of Linux users who bought NVidia optimus, it's not as if NVidia's lack of Linux support for optimus is a state secret.

                                It should be clear by now that if you want a laptop running Linux you are best off choosing an Intel solution.

                                Also I've seen no confirmation from NVidia that they are actually going to support optimus on Linux even if they could somehow use DMABUF.

                                Originally posted by christian_frank View Post
                                2. Nvidia decides to implement something in their blob to work around the issue -> Even more propietary things used in the end, instead of a well documented kernel interface
                                Which is what they've always done, you know for those proprietary driver which all NVidia fans are saying runs so great, so what's the problem? Simply that NVidia are not so eager to support their own technology on Linux when it's not targeting those Linux markets where they make money (hint! not the end user desktop and certainly not laptops).

                                Originally posted by christian_frank View Post
                                So, right now, please tell me, who benefits from the "dma-buf" block ???????????????????
                                The Linux kernel and Linux users benefits since this is a much larger issue than 'optimus'.

                                If the kernel developers makes it easier to maintain proprietary drivers then we will see an increase of companies only providing proprietary drivers, and those only for architectures said vendors find 'worth their while' rather than supplying/assisting with open source drivers, leading to less open source drivers and less value for Linux as a working-everywhere-on-anything kernel.

                                And that is ignoring all the other problems proprietary drivers bring along, like security and stability.

                                Are those who for some reason have bought an optimus powered laptop on which they want to run Linux (despite NVidia going out and saying 'we have NO plans of supporting optimus on Linux') worth jeopardizing hardware vendors returning to providing proprietary blobs rather than open source drivers in-tree as it's no longer such a hassle to do so? Nah, I don't think so, and more to the point it seems that most kernel devs in question doesn't think so either.

                                'Optimus' is a small blip in computing history and only pertains to a computer segment in which Linux barely even registers, yet some people are trying to portray optimus as some 'make it or break it' thing for Linux, it's quite hilarious.

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