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  • Originally posted by johnc View Post
    That's a good point: Linux can't do what Windows has been able to do for years... which seems to be par for course.
    Yes, but it's always been par for the course.

    We would never have a desktop to match CDE, because open source can't do desktops. Must run CDE binaries.
    We would never have a word processor to match WordPerfect because open source can't do office suites. Must run WordPerfect binary.
    We would never have a browser to match Netscape because open source can't do browsers. Must run Netscape binaries.
    We would never have a video player to match Windows Media and Quicktime and RealPlayer because open source can't do codecs. Must run different operating systems.
    We would never have a working network driver because open source can't do network. Must run Nvidia nforce whatever instead of the RE forcedeth driver.
    We would neevr have good version control because open source can't do version control. Must run BitKeeper.

    I've heard this many times, and in the end the open source solution always won out. Sometimes because a binary program was open-sources (Netscape, OpenOffice), sometimes because the clone surpassed the original (KDE, VLC/MPlayer/FFMPEG/x264), sometimes by reverse engineering and improvement till the binary was not needed (forcedeth).

    Now I hear that we would never have video drivers to match the binary ones.

    Some of you must be new to Linux....

    Comment


    • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      Yes, but it's always been par for the course.

      We would never have a desktop to match CDE, because open source can't do desktops. Must run CDE binaries.
      We would never have a word processor to match WordPerfect because open source can't do office suites. Must run WordPerfect binary.
      We would never have a browser to match Netscape because open source can't do browsers. Must run Netscape binaries.
      We would never have a video player to match Windows Media and Quicktime and RealPlayer because open source can't do codecs. Must run different operating systems.
      We would never have a working network driver because open source can't do network. Must run Nvidia nforce whatever instead of the RE forcedeth driver.
      We would neevr have good version control because open source can't do version control. Must run BitKeeper.

      I've heard this many times, and in the end the open source solution always won out. Sometimes because a binary program was open-sources (Netscape, OpenOffice), sometimes because the clone surpassed the original (KDE, VLC/MPlayer/FFMPEG/x264), sometimes by reverse engineering and improvement till the binary was not needed (forcedeth).

      Now I hear that we would never have video drivers to match the binary ones.

      Some of you must be new to Linux....
      "won out" is a bit of a stretch. It would be more accurate to say "finally achieved almost near parity after 400 years".

      Comment


      • Originally posted by johnc View Post
        "won out" is a bit of a stretch. It would be more accurate to say "finally achieved almost near parity after 400 years".
        More accurate?

        The best video codecs are open source (x264, avcodec). The best browser engines are open source (Webkit, Gecko). Best video players are open source (Mplayer, VLC). Best ripping and encoding software is open source (Handbrake). The best desktops are open source, but I understand if some people prefer Apple or Windows. OpenOffice is close to parity, but you seem to be confused on the others.

        I won't even mention stuff like webservers and BIND because open source dominated that from the very beginning.

        Sometimes doing things right is a slow process. I'm very happy with Linux today, and I'm happy that it keeps improving constantly. The correct choice of license is what has led to this, so I'm happy with that too.

        Comment


        • The best audio/dsp plugins are opensource - http://sourceforge.net/projects/pxu/files/

          Peace Be With You.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Serafean View Post
            Did you read/understand what I said in my post? I never said it was good for Linux's desktop market share, I said it was IMO the right decision to keep code quality, stability and security at a very high level (or at least to let everyone see the mistakes).
            Out of curiosity, how if a closed source driver any different from a closed source application? Both have the potential to royally mess up the OS with improper handling. Though I'm sure if Steam breaks the Kernel for a few months, no one will care, because its Steam, and heaven forbid, you WANT it.

            If you are going to argue that no closed source drivers should be included, then I would counter-argue that no closed source applications should be permitted either.

            You say yourself that you recommend another vendor if one doesn't meet your requirements; do you recommend AMD/Intel for everyone who wants to use linux (who really support linux and OSS)? Or do you recommend nvidia for its pseudo-support of linux (no OSS there)? If the second, then you only want a system free as in "free beer", and don't have a clue about what free as in "free speech" means (or you simply don't care).
            I want a driver that works. And the best supported driver on Linux is the closed-source NVIDIA one. At the end of the day, I want the best possible performance out of my machine.

            I'm not judging, all I'm saying is that I understand your point of view, but for me (and others) free as in "free speech" is more important, and I'd like you to understand that.

            Serafean
            And thats fine. But if you refuse to allow something because you don't want closed-source programs/drivers, you automatically give up the right to complain about the missing features that result.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
              You do realise that AMD is actively developing OSS drivers and releasing specifications, right?

              Ahem!! Releasing specifications late, sometimes of old hardware. And I can see the result on my hardware. Not really satisfying.
              What about the part where AMD prevents code from being published, that would possibly have video decode acceleration and power management working by now?
              Of course they know what they're doing, just "throwing" some bones would please some opensource-obsessed people that. Obsession is always bad, even if it is for good things. I mean, it's possible to die by drinking too much water, you knew?
              Correct me if I'm wrong, but in total I wouldn't say they have so good Linux support. I'm an MAD user btw now ..
              Some improvements seem to come to 12.9 onward though, not enough from what I saw on the beta, hopefully the future is good(release me from the fullscreen glitchiness! xD).
              Btw, to give you a hint, radeon is no choice for me, cause I want my laptop on normal temps, which is tough even with low profile(which also means minimum performance all the time).

              Intel on the other hand is another story.

              I'd take good support over specifications any day personally.
              Both is optimal, but what if it's not a choice?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                What about the part where AMD prevents code from being published, that would possibly have video decode acceleration and power management working by now?
                You mean the code we wrote for the specific purpose of starting the internal review effort ? The code which everyone complained about us even working on, because we couldn't say for sure if we would be able to release it ?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                  You mean the code we wrote for the specific purpose of starting the internal review effort ? The code which everyone complained about us even working on, because we couldn't say for sure if we would be able to release it ?
                  You're right, I know that there's several limits to what developers are allowed to release. Wouldn't there more likely be more progress without those?
                  The company, AMD, for whatever reason(don't know why, not wanting "to reveal a secret", patent/license by third party, not much my concern) puts some limits to what can be released.
                  Please correct me if I am wrong, as you are much more of an expert on this. I understand you people do what you can, but that doesn't change what I said above. I don't put blame on the devs, it's not their responsibility not being able to release it. Depending on the reason it's probably completely justified by the company.
                  But AMD is by no means as open as some people make it out to be. And sorry, but I've had my fair issues with both open and closed drivers.
                  I pretty much had no issue with the Nvidia closed driver though, and my "research" shows many people have had same experience. So I blame those people who make whoever releases anything open in any way(even if barely any specs) and blame all others. The thing is Nvidia has pretty good support in their driver and their stance is unjustified, counterproductive and only annoying.

                  I know I shouldn't expect that anytime soon, but I hope the open driver achieves good power management soon. Then I'll likely move to it(cause for my use case I can sacrifice some performance and stability, smoothness overall in desktop use that I have found in radeon will be welcomed too).

                  My rant isn't really about AMD/NVIDIA/INTEL or whoever. All have their reasons for what they do and are corporates in the end, I know what to expect of them. And it's partly my responsibility to be careful and know what I buy and what I want to use it for. My rant is mostly about opensource zealots. If I made it seem different or said something wrong, please excuse me and correct me.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                    You're right, I know that there's several limits to what developers are allowed to release. Wouldn't there more likely be more progress without those?
                    Yep. Might mean the end of the company, of course, but there would definitely be more progress.

                    Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                    The company, AMD, for whatever reason(don't know why, not wanting "to reveal a secret", patent/license by third party, not much my concern) puts some limits to what can be released.
                    All of the above, and more. Third party ownership might not be a big concern for you, but it obviously has to be a big concern for us. Same for all the other business and legal risks.

                    Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                    ...
                    But AMD is by no means as open as some people make it out to be.
                    Agreed. I think we're doing an OK job of being as open as *we* said we would be, but you can find people claiming we promised to do much more, along with people who don't realize we support open source graphics development or have a team of developers working on the driver. Those different claims can't *all* be right

                    Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                    I know I shouldn't expect that anytime soon, but I hope the open driver achieves good power management soon. Then I'll likely move to it(cause for my use case I can sacrifice some performance and stability, smoothness overall in desktop use that I have found in radeon will be welcomed too).
                    All I can say is that there's a lot of work being done to get there.

                    Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                    My rant isn't really about AMD/NVIDIA/INTEL or whoever. All have their reasons for what they do and are corporates in the end, I know what to expect of them. And it's partly my responsibility to be careful and know what I buy and what I want to use it for. My rant is mostly about opensource zealots. If I made it seem different or said something wrong, please excuse me and correct me.
                    Yeah, but it's the internet... there are open zealots, closed zealots, zealot zealots... this is where we all live

                    I really do wish the noise level could be lower though... there are days when I wonder if the internet is actually making people better informed or just providing reinforcement to pre-existing biases and beliefs. In theory everyone should be more knowledgeable and better understand the nuances of the business, but if anything there seems to be more polarizing and more zealotry every year.

                    Oh well...
                    Last edited by bridgman; 10-17-2012, 04:25 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                      I really do wish the noise level could be lower... there are days when I wonder if the internet is actually making people better informed or just providing reinforcement to people's pre-existing biases and beliefs. In theory everyone should be more knowledgeable and better understand the nuances of the business, but if anything there seems to be more polarizing and more zealotry every year.

                      Sigh...
                      What the use the internet for depends on the person in my opinion more than the internet.

                      "zealot zealots"

                      Yo dawg, I heard you like zealots ..

                      I follow phoronix and forums closely some time now, so I know that work is being done on many ends, but quick results are probably not to be expected or I might be disappointed(pleasant surprises are always welcome though).

                      Regarding openness, my graphics working right is the first priority for me actually, I won't get into "holy wars" about it. But at least of the big companies(maybe there are smaller I don't know much about and are different), non is truly open, neither did I expec them to be, some parts are though in cases. It's kinda natural as things work now.
                      I just don't like reading people who claim that their pc works perfect(or better than mine) cause it can do stuff like boot in an open way. 0_o **
                      (^bad metaphor)
                      So I reply .. And it results in reading more of it ..(logic) X_x


                      I guess I already know what these forums here are like, but since I write anyway, what come is a bit expected sometimes.

                      Good luck with your work as always. Now please let us continue the trolling etc ..

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                        What the use the internet for depends on the person in my opinion more than the internet.
                        Yep, guess I meant "the people posting on the internet" more than the actual collection of wires & routers.

                        Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                        I just don't like reading people who claim that their pc works perfect(or better than mine) cause it can do stuff like boot in an open way. 0_o **
                        (^bad metaphor)
                        So I reply .. And it results in reading more of it ..(logic) X_x
                        Yeah, you have to be careful though -- some people really *do* get significantly different results from others because of seemingly trivial differences in their hardware or distro/version (eg degree of power management happiness is to some extent a function of what your HW vendor put in the VBIOS power tables).

                        There is also a wide variety of usage patterns and some users really do find their priorities align pretty well with what the drivers implement today. Others find the exact opposite, of course.

                        Originally posted by Rigaldo View Post
                        Now please let us continue the trolling etc ..
                        Yep

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                          Yep, guess I meant "the people posting on the internet" more than the actual collection of wires & routers.



                          Yeah, you have to be careful though -- some people really *do* get significantly different results from others because of seemingly trivial differences in their hardware or distro/version (eg degree of power management happiness is to some extent a function of what your HW vendor put in the VBIOS power tables).

                          There is also a wide variety of usage patterns and some users really do find their priorities align pretty well with what the drivers implement today. Others find the exact opposite, of course.



                          Yep
                          I wasn't strictly talking about open drivers in that part actually, but more generally. I guess you're right though about differences between hardware.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                            You do realise that AMD is actively developing OSS drivers and releasing specifications, right?

                            And it's not a "call" from the kernel devs. Binary blobs using internal kernel interfaces are probably illegal, and no "call" can change that (the legality would have to be tested in court, of course, but no "call" can affect that either).

                            It's not like a kernel dev can make a "call" that will suddenly allow you to link binary blobs against GPL software.
                            Yes, I do realise AMD is developing OSS drivers etc

                            Calling "illegal" Binary blobs using internal kernel interfaces might be a stretch. It's a contract / license violation, and can only be enforced after pre-court examinations of the breach, and whether it meets sufficient legal conditions.

                            Don't get me wrong, I'm all for opensource - I have released a fair bit of code, including an algorithm I could have patented/licensed and made a lot of money on, all as Public Domain, as I thought the GPL amongst others would be too restrictive for my intentions.

                            However, GPL is good to protect certain things, I agree with it on those terms. But sometimes a little diplomacy is needed. Linus applied that to some things too.
                            There's LGPL which a lot of developers use because GPL is too restrictive, and they want their libraries to have a wider use.

                            Programmers have to eat too - it's all very well to say "give away what you do for free" while on corporate welfare (r.e. Stallman et al) - but it's a complex world and society where the rest of us have to produce work to get paid. Let's take a different ecosystem - the independent developers making a living off their work on Android Market; if they were to release their code, they would no longer have that advantage (after countless copies earning $0.01) and would probably quit and join a large corp, or take up road-sweeping as a side job instead of pursuing what they like to do and be able to feed themselves and their family.

                            Hence a little diplomacy towards nVidia at least; I have found their email support for Linux exemplary (AMD have been terrible on that front). They have programmers to pay, and they have licenses to protect. That's the way it is. Why kick them in the teeth when they are trying to find the best compromise for us?


                            P.S. I bet Win/Mac users are laughing their heads off at the bickering :P
                            Last edited by pixelpusher; 10-18-2012, 08:07 AM.

                            Comment


                            • New developements.

                              Where do new developments happen? Nvdidas lab? No. New developements happens everywhere. Such as this idea i hereby release into the GPL zone.

                              You can do antialiasing completely without additional resource-use, did you know? If you use a technique, such as r_jitter in doom3, (there are probably several ways of doing this), this itself increases the percieved resolution, and then you can merge the previous frame, with some transparency, and maybe the frame before with even more transparency, which will composite to antialiasing. The absolutely cheapest way of doing antialiasing.

                              Now how do I get this into the nvidia-driver? How much bureacracy much happen? If they listen at all? And if I didn`t gpl it, would they just hide it inside their closedsource driver?

                              It really comes down to what benefits mankind doesn`t it.
                              It`s a bit fun, Einstein said, e=mc2. So what is money? The energy in the universe is constant.
                              Well it does also sound like a pantheistic argument, so I am not going to go to deep into it.
                              But it is all about how you think about something. Society will still run, and go well, even if Nvidia opensources their driver. It`s just paradigms that must change.

                              Peace Be With You.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paradox Uncreated View Post
                                Where do new developments happen? Nvdidas lab? No. New developements happens everywhere. Such as this idea i hereby release into the GPL zone.

                                You can do antialiasing completely without additional resource-use, did you know? If you use a technique, such as r_jitter in doom3, (there are probably several ways of doing this), this itself increases the percieved resolution, and then you can merge the previous frame, with some transparency, and maybe the frame before with even more transparency, which will composite to antialiasing. The absolutely cheapest way of doing antialiasing.

                                Now how do I get this into the nvidia-driver? How much bureacracy much happen? If they listen at all? And if I didn`t gpl it, would they just hide it inside their closedsource driver?

                                It really comes down to what benefits mankind doesn`t it.
                                It`s a bit fun, Einstein said, e=mc2. So what is money? The energy in the universe is constant.
                                Well it does also sound like a pantheistic argument, so I am not going to go to deep into it.
                                But it is all about how you think about something. Society will still run, and go well, even if Nvidia opensources their driver. It`s just paradigms that must change.

                                Peace Be With You.
                                Well .. The thing is NVIDIA(and AMD) literally CAN'T opensource their driver, even if they wanted too .. Or at least much of it.
                                As paradigms change, it might slowly become possible though.
                                If I am not mistaken, even Intel has to reverse engineer their own product .. :|

                                Why? Because not everything in their hardware/software(drivers) is completely theirs for example, so there are licensing issues with 3rd parties and such from what I perceive. Among other things.

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