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  • #16
    Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
    What really surprises me is why some people care so much about something being open source. Lets say nvidia did open source their drivers and just completely dropped it on the community and said "here you go, have at it". considering the sheer size of these drivers, i don't know anyone in their right mind who would just go ahead and pick up on a few things there and there that the drivers don't include. seriously, even with the nouveau drivers, how many companies or just average joes actually make contributions? hell even the intel drivers, which are compared to the nvidia blob, are dauntingly gigantic for just anybody to join in.

    My point is, some people just want things to be open source just for the sake of it whether there would be any benefit to it at all, with the 1 exception of compiling the software on another platform. Maybe making little tweaks here and there to make a particular program slightly more compatible would be nice too, but 99% of people wouldn't bother doing such a thing on their own time.



    From what I gather, the only thing the closed source nvidia drivers need to do is to be perfectly compatible with the kernel, X, wayland, and all other software in the same way that the open source drivers are. I haven't used the nvidia drivers in almost a year but last time I checked, they require their own kernel headers, supply their own glx libraries, and probably more I can't think of. I understand why nvidia is doing this, but for people like linus to be more accepting of nvidia, they need to stop acting like their method is the 1 and only way to get things done. linus doesn't seem to have an issue if someone wants to create closed source software, what he seems to dislike is how it hinders the development of everything else.
    bingo. i hate using propritary drivers because they break the OS and don't mesh well.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      What really surprises me is why some people care so much about something being open source. Lets say nvidia did open source their drivers and just completely dropped it on the community and said "here you go, have at it". considering the sheer size of these drivers, i don't know anyone in their right mind who would just go ahead and pick up on a few things there and there that the drivers don't include. seriously, even with the nouveau drivers, how many companies or just average joes actually make contributions? hell even the intel drivers, which are compared to the nvidia blob, are dauntingly gigantic for just anybody to join in.

      My point is, some people just want things to be open source just for the sake of it whether there would be any benefit to it at all, with the 1 exception of compiling the software on another platform. Maybe making little tweaks here and there to make a particular program slightly more compatible would be nice too, but 99% of people wouldn't bother doing such a thing on their own time.
      Thank you. Finally some logic around here. Reading through the other threads about this topic I'm just shocked at some of the knee-jerk immature comments like "LOL FUK U 2 NVIDIA". I've been thinking of this same scenario of what if Nvidia just said "fine here's the code, good luck" or just completely drop Linux support without releasing any code or specs. There goes a very large chuck of Linux users. Linux isn't going to go anywhere on the desktop without a good graphics stack. Oh and Steam? Yeah you can probably forget about that too. You FOSS zealots are going to have to realize that there's going to have to be compromises if you want Linux to go anywhere. Only in a perfect world would everything be open source. And IMO this type of fanaticism is just going to drive hardware manufacturers away from Linux. Are you people going to jump all over Valve because they won't release the source of their client or the Source engine? Nobody is going to want to touch Linux because of the outrageous reactions from its user base if something isn't open source. All these FOSS fanatics are going to drive Linux on the desktop straight into the ground all in the sake of demanding the source code for everything.

      Does anyone remember what happened with Creative and the X-Fi driver? They eventually thew their hands up and said here's the specs, you write the code. And the last time I checked X-Fi support was still shoddy on Linux. And that was how many years ago? Anyway, I'm sure I just poked a hornet's nest now. Go on and flame away.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by entropy View Post
        That's actually what Matthew Garrett suggested in his reply:

        http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pi...ne/000336.html
        Seems like exciting times ahead for an Nvidia user if this ends up becoming a reality.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing View Post
          Having said what I said earlier, I do have an answer to the Stephen's query.

          It is my understanding(and I hope others around here will clarify this) that the proprietary Nvidia driver is not just the driver itself. The proprietary driver actually replaces parts of xorg and it's graphics stack, and other portions of software that clearly isn't necessarily covered under super secret hardware specifications.

          I do not mean deprecate all of these parts at once.

          Contribute to xorg whatever features are hidden within the proprietary stack, and when the co-responding OSS software package is capable of doing what the proprietary driver replaces, deprecate it's "replacement" that exists within the proprietary stack and make the proprietary driver more friendly with OSS components.

          Move on to the next re-written software item. Rinse and repeat. Contribute to whatever the OSS software package is, when the OSS software item is fully capable according to Nvidia's standards, deprecate the next part of the proprietary stack.

          The Nvidia driver should be made as small as possible, and designed to cover as little as possible.(hardware only, in other words) Leave the rest up to us.

          We have good software out here in OSS. Nvidia should stop re-inventing our wheel, and just patch the tire instead.

          Sounds like a good plan...nvidia should write a reference driver that just exposes the base features of the hardware and the OSS community can then flesh it out and add the other features to make a driver that's solid and does the job well


          Nvidia should follow AMD's lead and provide the programming docs so that OSS driver devs can write a complete driver that covers a wide range of nvidia's hardware
          Last edited by DeepDayze; 06-24-2012, 06:03 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            Divide Linux driver into a completely open kernel part and a user space part which communicates with the kernel driver.

            That way:
            1) Your driver will always be compatible with new kernel releases and we won't have to wait for new drivers releases 'cause Linus has once again broken the kernel APIs/ABIs.
            2) NVIDIA driver won't be able to make system crash or freeze.
            3) You will be able to easily support KMS and implement Optimus.

            This sounds like the best approach for general drivers in my opinion as less will break. I believe AMD's should go that route as well...fglrx breaks with every kernel release

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
              Thank you. Finally some logic around here. Reading through the other threads about this topic I'm just shocked at some of the knee-jerk immature comments like "LOL FUK U 2 NVIDIA".
              This started off fantastic.
              But then...

              Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
              I've been thinking of this same scenario of what if Nvidia just said "fine here's the code, good luck" or just completely drop Linux support without releasing any code or specs. There goes a very large chuck of Linux users. Linux isn't going to go anywhere on the desktop without a good graphics stack.
              For the 1000001-th time, nobody seriously wants them to open up their blob. :/
              Also they will never open up the blob. Leaving in a huff or what's you point?
              You might be surprised but NVIDIA does not provide a Linux driver for 'desktop Joe'.
              It's not because it's a passion for them to "support" Linux. There's significant money
              in CAD, medical applications and in particular HPC.
              They won't leave the field - to some extend they are dependent on Linux.

              Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
              Oh and Steam? Yeah you can probably forget about that too. You FOSS zealots are going to have to realize that there's going to have to be compromises if you want Linux to go anywhere. Only in a perfect world would everything be open source. And IMO this type of fanaticism is just going to drive hardware manufacturers away from Linux. Are you people going to jump all over Valve because they won't release the source of their client or the Source engine?
              Userspace... This is userspace. Nobody has seriously anything against commercial closed-source userspace applications.
              If at all, some people "fear" the DRM hell. (Which holds for Windows and Mac as well.)

              Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
              Nobody is going to want to touch Linux because of the outrageous reactions from its user base if something isn't open source. All these FOSS fanatics are going to drive Linux on the desktop straight into the ground all in the sake of demanding the source code for everything.
              "Fanatics" - Is that what you call a "mature" discussion?

              Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
              Does anyone remember what happened with Creative and the X-Fi driver? They eventually thew their hands up and said here's the specs, you write the code. And the last time I checked X-Fi support was still shoddy on Linux. And that was how many years ago? Anyway, I'm sure I just poked a hornet's nest now. Go on and flame away.
              Can you please point me to the documention of the X-FI cards?
              Maybe this already answers your question.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re

                Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
                Thank you. Finally some logic around here. Reading through the other threads about this topic I'm just shocked at some of the knee-jerk immature comments like "LOL FUK U 2 NVIDIA". I've been thinking of this same scenario of what if Nvidia just said "fine here's the code, good luck" or just completely drop Linux support without releasing any code or specs. There goes a very large chuck of Linux users. Linux isn't going to go anywhere on the desktop without a good graphics stack. Oh and Steam? Yeah you can probably forget about that too. You FOSS zealots are going to have to realize that there's going to have to be compromises if you want Linux to go anywhere. Only in a perfect world would everything be open source. And IMO this type of fanaticism is just going to drive hardware manufacturers away from Linux. Are you people going to jump all over Valve because they won't release the source of their client or the Source engine? Nobody is going to want to touch Linux because of the outrageous reactions from its user base if something isn't open source. All these FOSS fanatics are going to drive Linux on the desktop straight into the ground all in the sake of demanding the source code for everything.

                Does anyone remember what happened with Creative and the X-Fi driver? They eventually thew their hands up and said here's the specs, you write the code. And the last time I checked X-Fi support was still shoddy on Linux. And that was how many years ago? Anyway, I'm sure I just poked a hornet's nest now. Go on and flame away.
                1. There are a lot of developers that would be happy to continue development on the code.
                2. or just completely drop Linux support without releasing any code or specs, I am trying hard not to insult your "intelligence"... Some people really think that things are so simple?
                I assure you that nVidia doesn't want to drop Linux support... nVidia is having a very good income from selling devices with their hardware in them, like Android mobiles phones and tablets and a few of other things. And that's only the start...
                3. Most hardware companies don't have any reason to make the code closed source for the drivers. You sell hardware, not the drivers. You make money from the hardware you don't need closed source drivers. nVidia and AMD is another case because of all the technologies involved in graphics processing.
                4. You think that Open Source developers are worse looks like, that's again, because of your "intelligence" but I will explain that to you too...
                Don't compare developers that have all the time access to the hardware, the specs and engineers that made the hardware with developers that have at their disposal just some documentation...
                Linux has some Amazing developers, take for example the experience Microsoft had with Linux developers, after the feedback they received from Linux developers they improved their code A Lot(talking about Hyper-V). Won't start giving you statistics now but the Windows kernel developers were amazed themselves...
                Last edited by Alliancemd; 06-24-2012, 06:28 PM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by asdx
                  Fuck off and die.
                  Well, that was mature and constructive...

                  Please elaborate?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FuturePilot View Post
                    You FOSS zealots are going to have to realize that there's going to have to be compromises if you want Linux to go anywhere. Only in a perfect world would everything be open source. And IMO this type of fanaticism is just going to drive hardware manufacturers away from Linux. Are you people going to jump all over Valve because they won't release the source of their client or the Source engine? Nobody is going to want to touch Linux because of the outrageous reactions from its user base if something isn't open source. All these FOSS fanatics are going to drive Linux on the desktop straight into the ground all in the sake of demanding the source code for everything.
                    And you obviously did not read the whole comment you quoted.
                    I for one want nVidia just to be more open-source-friendly, for reasons like on my machine the nvidia-driver is so unstable it is unusable. Once every night my machine locks. And thats while my screens are in energy-saving-mode (so no oops on-screen), and for some reason netconsole does not repeat this OOPS (or whatever it is). The machine is just unresponsive to ssh or anything and seems to try to burn up (at least if you take the sounds of that fans into account). It also locks some other times while I am using it (primary while opening and closing many windows, and some may contain videos), but the nightly freezes are most fun, because as I said the screens are in energy-saving-mode, and the card/driver really should have nothing to do. Is that why they freeze my machine? Because the blob is bored?
                    Removing nvidia and go back to nouveau removes this hang every time.

                    I believe nVidia would earn much good-will by helping for example the nouveau-guys because obviously they do something right that the nVidia team does not, and there are many wheels in the cart called "kernel" that abviously is much better implemented then the ones in the blob.

                    And the same holds true for binary games. Have you tried getting Grim Fandango running in Windows x64? The hard part is not to get it running (it works rather fine) but replace the installer with something that is not 16- bit, and Win64 fails to run.
                    So what do you think is one of the big motivationals for people to run for Residualvm?
                    And in the mean time the games gets something that the original never had, native linux support. Just like Nvidia could have had good working native MIPS-support and not lose a billions of dollar deal.
                    And native is good. I bought the Humble5-pack, and must say that I am a little bit disappointed in how for example Limbo fails just because wine is a bit fragile.

                    But, hey. I am just a FOSS-fanatic who see the opportunities that FOSS can give if used right.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Fix the driver

                      1. Fix suspend/hibernate issues. Countly systems I've used, and it's nearly always Nvidia drivers that can't suspend and hibernate properly.

                      2. Support Optimus. I don't know how they can think they have a decent driver when they don't even support countless systems that use Optimus technology.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The big thing, though, is NVidia upper management. They don't see Linux as a place to be in outside of some nitche (ARM/Tegra) areas.

                        Nvidia? Meet Valve. Valve, Nvidia.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Release all full specs except your last two generation GPU series. Then, when you release a new series you will release another one, staying always behind of two series. This way you should be able to keep your newer series "secret", as this seems to be what you want.

                          Do this and you'll be the best Linux company out there.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by birdie View Post
                            Divide Linux driver into a completely open kernel part and a user space part which communicates with the kernel driver.

                            That way:
                            1) Your driver will always be compatible with new kernel releases and we won't have to wait for new drivers releases 'cause Linus has once again broken the kernel APIs/ABIs.
                            2) NVIDIA driver won't be able to make system crash or freeze.
                            3) You will be able to easily support KMS and implement Optimus.
                            Open drivers which only have a closed source client are not accepted into the kernel. No one can test them if the only client is not available.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by asdx
                              M1kkko,

                              I apologize for being offensive or immature, but responding to what FuturePilot said:



                              This is the kind of thinking that is hurting us as a community. I believe that instead we need to strive for what we believe in. We need to remind ourselves of what our goals are and what our principles are, and strive for them.

                              We need to fight against patents, binary blobs and educate hardware manufacturers to play nicely with the Linux community. If they won't cooperate, well, we have the choice not to buy from them and the choice to buy from hardware manufacturers that respect our freedom and our community. But make sure that when you are buying from a hardware vendor that respects you, you also explain the hardware vendor why you are not buying from them, so that they get educated.

                              Compromises like what FuturePilot is suggesting won't take us anywhere, but to a world of discontrol and pain where we (and the Linux developers) don't have the control of our computing anymore. This is not good.

                              Never surrender. YOU have the control of everything.
                              Agree, but if you want it your way, you need to take more marketshare.

                              You need to be more competitive in the desktop.

                              Linus himself has stated here "Why is Linux not competitive on the desktop front?":

                              http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/06/l...-is-linux.html
                              Last edited by madjr; 06-24-2012, 07:22 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by bug77 View Post
                                Open drivers which only have a closed source client are not accepted into the kernel. No one can test them if the only client is not available.
                                Link, citation?

                                Are you referring to the VIA case?

                                http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...via_no_chrome9
                                http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item=via_bluff

                                Not sure what came out of this. I assume nothing.
                                But was it due to the DRM part not being accepted?

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