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  • #31
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    more stable, less buggy
    I give you example: http://ati.cchtml.com/show_bug.cgi?id=432#c14 (commentary 14) - make conclusion here.
    Originally posted by uid313 View Post
    better in every way
    Especially in Optimus support way.

    Comment


    • #32
      Nvidia post changelogs, AMD doesn't.

      Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
      I give you example: http://ati.cchtml.com/show_bug.cgi?id=432#c14 (commentary 14) - make conclusion here.
      Oh, so it actually happens that AMD read and fix things.
      I am pleasantly surprised.

      Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
      IEspecially in Optimus support way.
      Well multi-GPU (SLI / CrossFire) and GPU-switching (Optimus / ATI Hybrid Graphics, Hybrid CrossFire, PowerXpress) is something that works on both Nvidia and AMD.
      So I don't think Nvidia is any worse than AMD here.

      Isn't it so that Nvidia drivers are faster, less buggy and more stable than AMD?
      Even though AMD is much slower out with new releases.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Nvidia post changelogs, AMD doesn't.
        Let's talk about AMD and nVidia web-site design, if you can't find what to say about drivers.

        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Oh, so it actually happens that AMD read and fix things.
        I am pleasantly surprised.
        You not understand - there is no bug in fglrx. In this case bug in Gnome and nVidia driver, but everyone blame AMD and, like you, talking about bugs in fglrx driver.

        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Well multi-GPU (SLI / CrossFire) and GPU-switching (Optimus / ATI Hybrid Graphics, Hybrid CrossFire, PowerXpress) is something that works on both Nvidia and AMD.
        Optimus works on nVidia? Cool! Show me same switch in nvidia-setting: http://i.imgur.com/zfoZz.png
        If there is no such switch, why you talk about "better in every way"? That simply not true.

        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Isn't it so that Nvidia drivers are faster, less buggy and more stable than AMD?
        Above I give you example that perfectly show why people think about nVidia driver as about "less buggy" and "more stable" (you too). Now about "faster": http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...d_radeon_win12 (don't forget to compare GPU price).

        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Even though AMD is much slower out with new releases.
        So, I need to put this link again?
        http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...589#post260589
        Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 05-26-2012, 09:27 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
          Optimus works on nVidia? Cool! Show me same switch in nvidia-setting: http://i.imgur.com/zfoZz.png
          If there is no such switch, why you talk about "better in every way"? That simply not true.
          Oh, that's pretty cool.
          I thought GPU switching didn't work on either AMD or Nvidia.
          Seems it works on at least AMD, thats great!

          Comment


          • #35
            It works for one year: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...item&px=OTI3Mg (only MUX-less supported).

            Comment


            • #36
              I'm just laughing my ass off by reading on how some people defends Catalyst (free drivers are a whole other story), like if it was purrfect situation ... when those drivers, in fact are horrible even in Windows itself.
              Maybe you people don't spend your time giving up support/maintenance to linux systems with this "special" piece of software ... or aren't graphic programmers, because I can hardly imagine how can you like Catalyst.

              Plus, I see some stuff like the Optimus support being mentioned, like if that would change compliance, stability and such of the driver. Out of that, it was a cheap shot, honestly.

              Regards.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                I'm just laughing my ass off by reading on how some people defends Catalyst (free drivers are a whole other story), like if it was purrfect situation ... when those drivers, in fact are horrible even in Windows itself.
                I like this "in fact"! No proof, just "in fact".

                Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                Plus, I see some stuff like the Optimus support being mentioned, like if that would change compliance, stability and such of the driver.
                http://phoronix.com/forums/showthrea...556#post264556 - answer to second quote.

                Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                nVidia doesn't need that to support Optimus on Linux. With Catalyst MUX-less Intal HD + Radeon HD works fine for one year, so it may works in Optimus case too, but nVidia doesn't care about laptop users, so they not implement this.

                Read nVidia engineer carefully - do you even notice, Robert Morell doesn't talk about Optimus (Intel HD + GeForce) and support of existing users? He talk only about Tegra + GeForce. Good luck to you in waiting for official Optimus support by nVidia. Sure, you probably get it someday, but don't wait it soon.
                Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 05-26-2012, 08:52 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                  With Catalyst MUX-less Intal HD + Radeon HD works fine for one year
                  Does it? Or is it just a hack where everything is rendered by Radeon and output on Intel. From what I know it's the hack. But if I know wrong, if Catalyst has proper support where Radon kicks in just for a specific app and shuts itself off when you close the app, then educate me. I'm always willing to learn.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I like this "in fact"! No proof, just "in fact".
                    Just search on the web how many times the AMD driver caused BSODs on windows even with legit code, that ignoring needing tweaks to code that is JUST FINE.
                    put the keywords and you'll see A RAIN of links ... without counting games that caused BSODs, you'll see stuff like tesselation code causing BSODs or even furmark from one day to another.

                    Have fun with your search engine.

                    nVidia doesn't need that to support Optimus on Linux. With Catalyst MUX-less Intal HD + Radeon HD works fine for one year, so it may works in Optimus case too, but nVidia doesn't care about laptop users, so they not implement this.

                    Read nVidia engineer carefully - do you even notice, Robert Morell doesn't talk about Optimus (Intel HD + GeForce) and support of existing users? He talk only about Tegra + GeForce. Good luck to you in waiting for official Optimus support by nVidia. Sure, you probably get it someday, but don't wait it soon.
                    Thanks for your speculation.

                    P.S → You never answered if you're a graphics programmer or give support/maintenance to systems with these cards ... because yeah, is easy to blindly talk out of personal taste, than having angry people around because things do not work or crash from one moment to another

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                      Just search on the web how many times the AMD driver caused BSODs on windows even with legit code, that ignoring needing tweaks to code that is JUST FINE.
                      put the keywords and you'll see A RAIN of links ... without counting games that caused BSODs, you'll see stuff like tesselation code causing BSODs or even furmark from one day to another.

                      Have fun with your search engine.
                      There was a lawsuit against MS that actually brought the exact numbers of these BSODs to the public. The #1 cause was NVidia drivers. AMD drivers were #2.

                      NVidia was pretty far ahead of AMD, although if you correlated it with the number of users actually using the hardware I believe the ratio came out very similar between the 2 companies.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                        Or is it just a hack where everything is rendered by Radeon and output on Intel.
                        MUX-less "Intel HD + some other GPU" can't work in other way, on Windows too.
                        Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                        Thanks for your speculation.
                        What?! Robert Morell talk about Optimus? Where? Give me the link, give me the quote.
                        Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                        Just search on the web how many times the AMD driver caused BSODs on windows even with legit code, that ignoring needing tweaks to code that is JUST FINE.
                        Just like this code in Gnome, right? Oh, doesn't matter, smitty3268 already answer to this.
                        Originally posted by vertexSymphony View Post
                        You never answered
                        I really need to? Anyway, if you intersted: I have four laptops with nVidia GPU (two 7300 Go (ASUS A8JN and RoverBook Voyager V550 WP), two 8600M GT (Acer Aspire 5920G-ZD1 and LG S900-U.CP38R)). On first two 3D broken one year ago (regression in proprietary driver; nouveau work fine), bug reported to nVidia, no fix for one year. On second two broken dynamic power management (screen flickering), bug reported too, no fix by nVidia for one year. Anyone have such regressions with Catalyst? I doubt.
                        Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 05-26-2012, 10:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                          MUX-less "Intel HD + some other GPU" can't work in other way, on Windows too.
                          Did you read my post in it's entirety? No, this is not how muxless works. Bumblebee, while only being a very crude workaround, *does* work as Optimus is intended to work. Read my post again, and answer properly about what I'm asking about. Failing to do so will make me inclined believe Catalyst really does use just a hack instead of proper support.

                          Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                          Anyone have such regressions with Catalyst? I doubt.
                          I recall an issue where xv would crash the server, and we were telling people for months on forums to switch their players to a different output method as a workaround. So your implication that Catalyst is without bugs, bugs which sometimes linger around for months, is simply incorrect.
                          Also, it *does* take months for new kernels/X releases to be supported on Catalyst. And no, you don't need to post that link again, I'm familiar with it. All it shows is, their release workflow simply isn't a good fit for the Linux stack, to put it mildly.

                          On the other hand, RealNC and I reported xv vsync issues in the nvidia 302.07 beta driver (the first time I ever had xv issues on nvidia), and they promptly fixed it in, 302.11 works fine. And they're much quicker in supporting new kernels/X releases.

                          See, we all have our anecdotes. But the one big difference I noticed is, I've seen on more than one forum a huge thread regarding AMD graphics, so people constantly need to discuss how to get the thing to work properly. No such threads for nvidia. While that doesn't mean no one has problems with nvidia (I do frequent the nvnews forums), the amount of people with problems on the two sides is quite different.
                          Last edited by Gusar; 05-27-2012, 05:46 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            Did you read my post in it's entirety?
                            I expect you know - until DMA-BUF is implemented, proper switch without X-server restart impossible, but it's not AMD fault (and you know that too). Hack or not hack, key point is: with I+A or A+A MUX-less hardware AMD user can simply install the driver and switch GPU in CCC. nVidia doesn't provide even basic level of such functional.
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            I recall an issue where xv would crash the server, and we were telling people for months on forums to switch their players to a different output method as a workaround.
                            I remember many bugs with Catalyst, but looks like many people just forget nVidia bugs, just like if they had never existed.
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            So your implication that Catalyst is without bugs
                            Stop here, and give the quote. Where I talk that?
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            bugs which sometimes linger around for months, is simply incorrect.
                            For months, not for YEARS (like in nVidia case).
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            ll it shows is, their release workflow simply isn't a good fit for the Linux stack, to put it mildly.
                            Support of X-server and kernel of supported distributions (you can find list of supported here) always come in time, isnt' it?
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            I reported xv vsync issues in the nvidia 302.07 beta driver (the first time I ever had xv issues on nvidia), and they promptly fixed it in, 302.11 works fine
                            And what your recommendation to me? What I need to do with my nVidia hardware, that can not use VDPAU because the only one working option for this hardware now - is nouveau.
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            No such threads for nvidia.
                            So what? Is there enough data to make some sort conclusion from that?
                            Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                            the amount of people with problems on the two sides is quite different
                            I believe you have a representative statistics that confirm your words.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                              I expect you know - until DMA-BUF is implemented, proper switch without X-server restart impossible, but it's not AMD fault (and you know that too).
                              Why couldn't you say that in the first place? You were berating Nvidia regarding their talking about their issues implementing Optimus, and saying that AMD is in a better position. Yes, they have the hack and Nvidia doesn't, but that's not proper muxless support.
                              And when it comes to hacks, for Nvidia there's Bumbleblee. Which works as muxless actually should, only activating the dedicated card for select apps and then deactivating it afterwards.

                              Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                              Stop here, and give the quote. Where I talk that?
                              How about the part I quoted? It implies that one won't encounter regressions with Catalyst.

                              Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                              Support of X-server and kernel of supported distributions (you can find list of supported here) always come in time, isnt' it?
                              Nice diversion. I mentioned latest X and kernel releases, and it's obvious I was talking about upstream releases, not select distributions. With Nvidia I'm not limited in my choice of distro to what's on a list. But like I said, nice diversion.

                              Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                              And what your recommendation to me? What I need to do with my nVidia hardware, that can not use VDPAU because the only one working option for this hardware now - is nouveau.
                              I don't have enough details about your issues to make suggestions.

                              Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                              So what? Is there enough data to make some sort conclusion from that?
                              Yes, that there's plenty of people having issues with AMD graphics, and that there's a lot more effort required to have Catalyst working properly, compared to Nvidia.

                              Originally posted by RussianNeuroMancer View Post
                              I believe you have a representative statistics that confirm your words.
                              You mean like the huge forums threads I mentioned? An example: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=57084. There's actually a similar almost as large thread for the open radeon driver.
                              Last edited by Gusar; 05-27-2012, 08:22 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                Why couldn't you say that in the first place?
                                Because it's most hot X topic for last weeks. Why I need to "say that in the first place", instead of talking about key differences (basic level of support in proprietary driver out-of-the-box) that, as you see here, AMD-haters doesn't know about.
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                Yes, they have the hack and Nvidia doesn't, but that's not proper muxless support.
                                And when it comes to hacks, for Nvidia there's Bumbleblee.
                                I need to explain difference between fglrx implementation and Bumbleblee implementation from point of view of very common user, or you can understand it without my explanation?
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                How about the part I quoted? It implies that one won't encounter regressions with Catalyst.
                                You miss "such" word. Try again.
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                it's obvious I was talking about upstream releases, not select distributions. With Nvidia I'm not limited in my choice of distro to what's on a list.
                                xUbuntu and SUSE users doesn't care.
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                I don't have enough details about your issues to make suggestions.
                                Ask anything
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                Yes, that there's plenty of people having issues with AMD graphics, and that there's a lot more effort required to have Catalyst working properly, compared to Nvidia.
                                It depend on what forums you looking at. Try to сompare AMD bugtracker and nVidia bugtracker (let's say nvnews is nVidia public bugtracker; do you agree?) - you will get the opposite result.
                                Originally posted by Gusar View Post
                                You mean like the huge forums threads I mentioned? An example: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=57084.
                                I just wonder, all this people ever contact with AMD tech. support or use feedback form? You know, they may talk about bugs forever, if they doesn't report it.
                                Last edited by RussianNeuroMancer; 05-27-2012, 09:18 AM. Reason: Typo fix

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