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Valve's Gabe Newell Talks Linux Steam Client, Source Engine

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  • #31
    Where's the picture of you and Gabe together? Did I miss something? Also as already noted, no transcript, no citations, not one word from Gabe. I'm a bit underwhelmed...

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
      Where's the picture of you and Gabe together? Did I miss something? Also as already noted, no transcript, no citations, not one word from Gabe. I'm a bit underwhelmed...
      ^ This.

      "Valve's Gabe Newell Talks Linux Steam Client, Source Engine" is a very misleading title. It's just two pages of nothing new (except a couple of pictures), with a smattering of unsubstantiated paraphrasing, instead of actual quotes.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Kivada View Post
        Yeah, but Ubuntu represents 95% of the Linux target audience. While Gentoo's target audience is sadists.
        I'm not sure where did you get these numbers from, but they are far off from actuall results. I wasn't talking about Gentoo specifically in my post. I was only suggesting it will cause market fragmentation if only one distro is addressed.

        Gentoo and Ubuntu address different markets. Gentoo is designed for power users who can make their own decisions about OS configuration, where Ubuntu's target audience are Linux newbies with no real Linux experience, where decisions are made for them. Obviously Ubuntu will have much bigger market share for that reason. There is plenty of space for both distros on the market.
        Rob
        email: dagger@gentoo.org

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        • #34
          Ah c'mon people, in the past Michael might have posted a bit too much based on some very small news that indeed turned out to not be so accurate in terms of timeline and all, but you've been watching way too many movies if you think he architected some kind of very elaborate farse, with pictures and a history of how he went to valve and all that, just to continue a "rumor".

          For me, I think for starters this serves as proof. Now let's hope that Valve's execution goes well.
          And I hope to see "steam linux beta invites" for phoronix users, that would be awesome

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          • #35
            Hmm, interesting!

            http://www.develop-online.net/news/4...-hardware-plan

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            • #36
              Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
              Where's the picture of you and Gabe together? Did I miss something? Also as already noted, no transcript, no citations, not one word from Gabe. I'm a bit underwhelmed...
              I guess Michael will post more pictures and informations in the next posts/days. Why? Because he's not working for free and needs more visitors to make profit. What would you do if you have such a good scoop and a website? In my opinion it's legit.

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              • #37
                Valve and Linux

                Good job in being invited at Valve's.

                My considerations:
                The Title is misleading at least.
                I'd like to read some Gabe's quotes on a future article.
                With Microsoft evolution (Win8 being a tablet like OS, probably in a locked-in environment enclosing Windows, Xbox, WinPhones...) and Apple becoming #1 mobile game distributor (similar to that Android)... with locked-in markets (google play, Apple app store, in future MS) Valve faces a gloomy future in the long term. I guess they want to have a plan B for distributing they top-tier contents.
                SO: yes, I second the vision of those who talked about a SteamBOX based on some unix flavour (not necessarily Linux due to GPL licensing, unless they can do some TIVOization).
                Gaming and even more console-gaming industry needs stable and standard HW, stable and standard APIs/Graphic-Libraries.
                I find it hard they start to port games to linux for generic distributions (which will be the one they target? maybe ubuntu, but like other distributions it's a moving target). Plus linux is 1% of desktop market and I think it won't gain much in the near future.
                So I believe that if they ever port games to Linux OS on desktops (not probable), they will do that with their own gaming distribution, which will be the de facto standard and the target for games developers. Maybe a spin-off of Ubuntu or Fedora or Debian. But still, why they should (economically speaking)?
                Netrunner Linux - Rolling Release ; Nexus 5 ROM Chroma 5.1 ; NAS 6TB on FreeNAS

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by [Knuckles] View Post
                  And I hope to see "steam linux beta invites" for phoronix users, that would be awesome
                  Me too! Would be great being able to play with a microphone in L4D2 (my audio input port doesn't work with Windows 7, but works great with Ubuntu), I bought it for this reason Writing in chat is so boring... I may even install Catalyst driver if it is really needed for testing!

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                  • #39
                    What "more" could Valve do than release their games and Steam for Linux? Sounds like one of two things has gone unstated:

                    1. Steambox
                    2. Open sourcing of engine(s) and/or the Steam client itself

                    I'm really intrigued by Valve's apparent willingness to hire people who aren't directly doing OpenGL. On the other hand, I wish they will hire some people to work on the open source graphics stack. Mesa commits from people with emails @valve.com !?! I can't wait!

                    If they do push a Steambox, I hope they use a platform compatible enough with what most people run on their desktops, so that we can also play their games on popular Linux distros. It would be a huge disappointment if they reinvent the graphics stack once again, like Android did and like Chrome OS did, rather than using Xorg. Because if they use Xorg + GLX + OpenGL, it's hard for it not to run on Linux distros for the PC, unless they decide on an ARM chipset for the Steambox.... that would destroy the ability to run their games on x86.

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                    • #40
                      Epic

                      This is some EPIC news . I hope Trine 2 and Oilrush for Linux will also be added to the steam client.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
                        2. Open sourcing of engine(s) and/or the Steam client itself
                        Yeah, because I want my credit card numbers being stored in a program where anyone being paid by organized crime can look through the source, find a flaw, and exploit it.

                        It would be a huge disappointment if they reinvent the graphics stack once again, like Android did and like Chrome OS did, rather than using Xorg.
                        No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't even be disappointing if X.org disappeared entirely.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                          Yeah, because I want my credit card numbers being stored in a program where anyone being paid by organized crime can look through the source, find a flaw, and exploit it.
                          You know, that happens with with proprietary software, too. And Valve/Steam got hacked. Closing the source doesn't make it safer. Also opening the source doesn't make it less safe.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by dagger View Post
                            I'm not sure where did you get these numbers from, but they are far off from actuall results. I wasn't talking about Gentoo specifically in my post. I was only suggesting it will cause market fragmentation if only one distro is addressed.

                            Gentoo and Ubuntu address different markets. Gentoo is designed for power users who can make their own decisions about OS configuration, where Ubuntu's target audience are Linux newbies with no real Linux experience, where decisions are made for them. Obviously Ubuntu will have much bigger market share for that reason. There is plenty of space for both distros on the market.
                            With all the respect I have for a developer, I have to say that I run Gentoo for about 2 years in my main computer, but I ended up switching to Kubuntu. I do like the concept behind Gentoo, and the amount I learned from that experience allowed me to, among other things, get a better paid and more interesting job.
                            For me the biggest reason to move was that when a big component of the system was updated (like X or KDE), it took ages to compile. Also, I stated with a very minimalistic set of compile options, and when I discovered that I needed a new option for a specific program, and I had to re-compile a big group of others to have the support, it was really a pain.
                            Of course, within the things I learned was how to make a good streamlined kernel, and it is something I still do, instead of using the standard ubuntu one. Now that I have a newer machine that is way faster, I'm considering to go back (the feeling was stronger when it was announced that Kubuntu will not be supported anymore), mainly because of the amount of control you have over the distribution.
                            Anyway, your comment about Ubuntu is for newbies and Gentoo is for power users is a bit pejorative, and even though it might be partially true in some respect, I think you cannot put all the users in the same basket.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                              Yeah, because I want my credit card numbers being stored in a program where anyone being paid by organized crime can look through the source, find a flaw, and exploit it.
                              Spoken like someone who has no idea how software works. Your credit card numbers are not stored in the Steam client, and nowhere did I ever suggest or mention that I'd want, or that Valve would want, to release the server-side source code to Steam. There is zero security risk to releasing the client-side source code to Steam, unless someone recompiles a version that does steal your identity, releases it, and you're stupid enough to download and use it. But you take this risk any time you download any open source software that is involved in payment transactions, so by your logic, you should only ever run Windows and Internet Explorer, because they're closed source.

                              It comes down to trust, that's all it is. If you trust the source of the software you're running, that's all that matters. The open or closed source-ness of the software is irrelevant. People still can, and will, discover vulnerabilities even if they don't have the source. And for the best hackers, the reality is that not having the source available doesn't make it particularly harder than it would be if they had it. Especially since most of the vulnerabilities are going to show up in the client-server networking stuff, and that is completely observable with something as common as WireShark.

                              Besides, someone already hacked Valve and stole a bunch of hashed passwords and email addresses. From their server. Without anything at all to do with the client, and without any source code being released. The Steam client is not doing anything other than attempting to hit the Steam server services, which are already fully accessible on the public Internet for hackers to try and build their own custom client to them, which would "do bad things".

                              You might also be interested to hear about the extremely convincing, if not downright correct, arguments of a company called Subgraph in favor of open source as an inherent boon to software security. If SSL/TLS, the global standard for secure financial transactions on the web, isn't convincing enough for you -- I don't know what is. The standard is completely in the open; most implementations of the standard are completely open; and yet, attackers would much rather compromise your web browser's javascript implementation or session cookies (things which are unrelated to SSL) rather than try to break SSL itself. If visibility makes exploits easier, then why hasn't TLS 1.0 been cracked?

                              Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                              No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't even be disappointing if X.org disappeared entirely.
                              Troll much? So you're basically saying that if Valve writes some proprietary graphics stack specifically for their Steambox, and their Linux ports of their games only run on that proprietary graphics stack, you'd be fine with that? Because if we get rid of Xorg, desktop Linux basically has nothing. Zero. Zip. We don't get to use their "Linux" software, period. Just like we can't play Android games on desktop Linux without an extremely slow, software emulator.

                              I mean, sure, Valve could use Wayland.... but why would they, when it's so immature and under-developed? It would be awesome if they did support it, and it would be a huge impetus to get desktop distros to adopt Wayland; but I'm extremely skeptical that they would even consider it. And even if it did, the people who are stuck with proprietary drivers (hi Southern Islands, hi Kepler) or unbearably slow/buggy open source drivers (hi Evergreen, hi Northern Islands, hi APUs, hi Kepler, hi... oh why do I even bother) would be completely unable to play the games. My bet is that even a full-on adoption of Wayland, by Valve, would not give desktop Linux the ability to run their games. They would either commission or write a proprietary driver for whatever hardware is in their Steambox, and that'd be the end of it.

                              Oh, also! Just because they might want to port the Source engine to Wayland, or whatever other graphics stack they come up with, doesn't mean that other developers will want to go there too. There are dozens upon dozens of existing games for native Linux, and all of them -- without exception -- use OpenGL, GLX, and... X11. So if that all goes away, you're left with Steambox only running Valve games, and anyone who releases a cool Linux game for X11/GLX in the future is not going to be able to sell it on Steam.

                              So unless you're totally against Valve bringing their products and content distribution platform to Linux at all, you would be forced to acknowledge that using X11/GLX would be the best way for them to do it. They'd be able to support the best range of existing hardware and drivers (both open and proprietary), the best range of distributions (nearly all), and they could still build a solid and very reliable Steambox based on Xorg. They'd just have to use a proprietary driver, or else find a perfect hardware chipset that's cheap and already has great open driver support, or else, contribute to the open drivers directly to get them to the standard they need for their games. That third option is what I'm hoping for, but will probably not get unless Gabe Newell has been possessed with the combined souls of Linus Torvalds, Brian Paul and Ryan Gordon.
                              Last edited by allquixotic; 04-25-2012, 10:05 AM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by yogi_berra View Post
                                Yeah, because I want my credit card numbers being stored in a program where anyone being paid by organized crime can look through the source, find a flaw, and exploit it.



                                No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't even be disappointing if X.org disappeared entirely.
                                I'm not sure I understand why you think such functionality would need to exist in the client? An open source client would at best talk to a valve API, likely resulting in alternative UI's, and integration into things such as the ubuntu store. I don't particularly think they'll be open sourcing the client, but it'd still be a cause to celebrate if they did despite the fact that it wouldn't do much by itself.

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