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AMD Kaveri: Gallium3D vs. Catalyst Drivers

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  • #16
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    One last point -- the patches I mentioned in the previous post were for CI in general. I don't think we have explicitly tested DPM on Kaveri yet, although we'll certainly do that next week.
    I understand that Tim is the one to ask but since you're here.
    So to me it seems like development slowed done since the dpm and uvd push. More precisely:
    - No news about what Christian is working on, his latest state tracker was never merged, I think.
    - Marek has almost fewer mesa commits than in his worst exam period.
    - No real news regarding Tom ever since bgfminer started working.

    I'm not saying they are lazy, quite the contrary. I wonder how restricted they are by AMD legal and other internal stuff (writing reports, god knows)?
    Just to give you an example: I've thought that by now r600g will have at least RFC patches to enable GL 3.3 but it appears nobody is working on it.

    Yes, I am aware that it wasn't part of your original commitment but if you hire the guys who would do it anyways then I would assume they have more time to work on it.

    Can't blame HSA either, there's no news about it coming to Linux any time soon.

    Would you be kind enough to enlighten me? Thanks a lot in advance!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by HokTar View Post
      I understand that Tim is the one to ask but since you're here.
      So to me it seems like development slowed done since the dpm and uvd push. More precisely:
      - No news about what Christian is working on, his latest state tracker was never merged, I think.
      - Marek has almost fewer mesa commits than in his worst exam period.
      - No real news regarding Tom ever since bgfminer started working.

      I'm not saying they are lazy, quite the contrary. I wonder how restricted they are by AMD legal and other internal stuff (writing reports, god knows)?
      Just to give you an example: I've thought that by now r600g will have at least RFC patches to enable GL 3.3 but it appears nobody is working on it.

      Yes, I am aware that it wasn't part of your original commitment but if you hire the guys who would do it anyways then I would assume they have more time to work on it.

      Can't blame HSA either, there's no news about it coming to Linux any time soon.

      Would you be kind enough to enlighten me? Thanks a lot in advance!
      I'm not from AMD but I have an answer for one of your questions.
      As for geometry shaders which is the missing part for OpenGL 3.3, Vadim had started working on them for r600g. Then Dave made a couple of new patches to it. You can find it in one of his branches. As for geometry shaders work for radeonsi AMD is working internally (Alex mentioned somewhere on phoronix). According to RadeonsiToDo, Michel Dänzer is working on it.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by HokTar View Post
        I understand that Tim is the one to ask but since you're here.
        So to me it seems like development slowed done since the dpm and uvd push.
        The public view of what we're doing has always been a bit "lumpy" -- nothing seems to be happening, then something surprisingly good gets released, then there's a flurry of tweaks and bug fixes for a while, then things die down and nothing seems to be happening...

        It's probably safe to say that everyone is working on what you would like them to be working on, including a few things you haven't thought to ask for yet

        Originally posted by HokTar View Post
        I wonder how restricted they are by AMD legal and other internal stuff (writing reports, god knows)?
        There's the usual IP gates for new programming info which are both legal and technical -- we're trying to push that earlier in the development effort but in the short term (like all improvements) it means more work with less visible result for a while. Other than that I think the only "internal stuff" is maintaining a task list so the devs don't duplicate each other's work or work being done in the community.

        Originally posted by HokTar View Post
        Can't blame HSA either, there's no news about it coming to Linux any time soon.
        Actually there's a lot of Linux HSA work going on now, it's just being going through the "nothing seems to be happening" phase as well but that won't last much longer.

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        • #19
          dpm not works yet

          what i read is dpm not works yet for new apu

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by zanny View Post
            DPM is defaulted on in 3.13, so the huge performance gap is with all the gpu cores in use and at their rated frequencies. I think. They may not have DPM code for Kaveri in yet.
            Not exactly. It was enabled by default for certain GPU families, but not all. DPM support for CI parts is still disabled by default. I hope to enable by default for CI for 3.14.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Rakot View Post
              I'm not from AMD but I have an answer for one of your questions.
              As for geometry shaders which is the missing part for OpenGL 3.3, Vadim had started working on them for r600g. Then Dave made a couple of new patches to it. You can find it in one of his branches. As for geometry shaders work for radeonsi AMD is working internally (Alex mentioned somewhere on phoronix). According to RadeonsiToDo, Michel Dänzer is working on it.
              Hey, thanks! That is indeed very good news! Haven't heard of it earlier.

              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks a lot for your answer!

                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                The public view of what we're doing has always been a bit "lumpy" -- nothing seems to be happening, then something surprisingly good gets released, then there's a flurry of tweaks and bug fixes for a while, then things die down and nothing seems to be happening...

                It's probably safe to say that everyone is working on what you would like them to be working on, including a few things you haven't thought to ask for yet
                I do understand this method of working as I have been following development ever since the "r600c can do 2D but not glxgears yet!" era.
                My point was more like: there's a lot of stuff now that could be worked on in the open as it should not involve much/any IP. What I mean typically are the GL functions to support and optimisations. IMHO those should not be worked on secretly and then thrown out like how it was with UVD.

                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                Actually there's a lot of Linux HSA work going on now, it's just being going through the "nothing seems to be happening" phase as well but that won't last much longer.
                Interesting!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by zanny View Post
                  Not at all. I have a 5800k htpc that gets within 10% the performance of Catalyst in Minecraft and HoN, and it has EXA 2d so that also runs fast.

                  If you want an AMD APU based machine right now under Mesa, a 5800 or 6800k is definitely a better buy. Just like how a 6970 still beats any SI card under Mesa.

                  Though I do know it took Mesa 10 and kernel 3.12 for the hdmi audio to work, and it still doesn't resume the hdmi output if I suspend it.
                  But assuming one is going to install Catalyst drivers the 7850K is still the best choice to build a low-cost gaming PC*, right? I mean, at least Catalyst is fine for Kaveri?**
                  * like this one https://teksyndicate.com/videos/buil...c-nov-dec-2012 or https://teksyndicate.com/videos/buil...sole-build-one
                  ** except the need to downgrade Xorg and kernel on latest linux distributions due to AMD not keeping up

                  What non-AMD solution would you guys recommend for a low-cost linux gaming PC equivalent to at least AMD A10-6800K?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                    Actually there's a lot of Linux HSA work going on now, it's just being going through the "nothing seems to be happening" phase as well but that won't last much longer.
                    I am very glad to hear that and expecting it to tell the truth!
                    Remember the old days when Linux was the only OS to support fully and natively AMD64?

                    I shaw this benchmark result about HSA
                    HTML Code:
                    http://www.extremetech.com/computing/174632-amd-kaveri-a10-7850k-and-a8-7600-review-was-it-worth-the-wait-for-the-first-true-heterogeneous-chip/5
                    look at the chart of Libreoffice Calc! A10 7850K was 5 times faster than an intel core i5 4670 with HSA enabled!

                    Considering the fact that Linux community can update the compilers to build binaries with HSA enabled quite easily compared to proprietary aging compilers and as a result binaries windows have and get the image...

                    Now for the GPU performance of RadeonSI driver I say let's wait for proper DPM to come and then recheck but it is a loss in the article that Michael didn't mentioned the DPM lack or didn't investigate it before post the results.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Bucic

                      What non-AMD solution would you guys recommend for a low-cost linux gaming PC equivalent to at least AMD A10-6800K?
                      Amd FX 4 or 6 piledriver cores (or any i3 3GHz+) + Radeon HD7750 (or GTX 640) is better solution for games then Kaveri. And gfx 640 is better choice for play on linux (steam/wine) still.


                      Michael always used "defaults" so i guess Kaveri run at static PM.
                      In unigine-tests my HD7770(radeonsi) has ~70-90% performance of catalyst.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by frosth View Post
                        Amd FX 4 or 6 piledriver cores (or any i3 3GHz+) + Radeon HD7750 (or GTX 640) is better solution for games then Kaveri. And gfx 640 is better choice for play on linux (steam/wine) still.


                        Michael always used "defaults" so i guess Kaveri run at static PM.
                        In unigine-tests my HD7770(radeonsi) has ~70-90% performance of catalyst.
                        I see, thanks.

                        Out of curiosity, how would AMD A10-7850K stack up against an AMD ATHLON II X4 750 FM2 + GF 640 performance-wise? The APU is more expensive here! I assume you meant something like EVGA GeForce GT 640 2048MB.

                        I guess APU-s are better bang for the buck only when you want a sub-$400 or even sub-350$ gaming system...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bucic View Post
                          I see, thanks.

                          Out of curiosity, how would AMD A10-7850K stack up against an AMD ATHLON II X4 750 FM2 + GF 640 performance-wise? The APU is more expensive here! I assume you meant something like EVGA GeForce GT 640 2048MB.

                          I guess APU-s are better bang for the buck only when you want a sub-$400 or even sub-350$ gaming system...
                          You do have to consider the top of the line AMD parts are marked up at a price premium a bit. For example, the 5600k and 6600k are better bang for buck with slightly lower clock speeds.

                          But its hard to compete with, say, a 260x + Athlon 750. They cost about the same, but the discrete gpu will do a lot better (I think, I know the 260x is a newer chip that might not have good Mesa supportl like the 7770 or 7850 around it).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by djdoo View Post
                            I am very glad to hear that and expecting it to tell the truth!
                            Remember the old days when Linux was the only OS to support fully and natively AMD64?

                            I shaw this benchmark result about HSA
                            HTML Code:
                            http://www.extremetech.com/computing/174632-amd-kaveri-a10-7850k-and-a8-7600-review-was-it-worth-the-wait-for-the-first-true-heterogeneous-chip/5
                            look at the chart of Libreoffice Calc! A10 7850K was 5 times faster than an intel core i5 4670 with HSA enabled!

                            Considering the fact that Linux community can update the compilers to build binaries with HSA enabled quite easily compared to proprietary aging compilers and as a result binaries windows have and get the image...

                            Now for the GPU performance of RadeonSI driver I say let's wait for proper DPM to come and then recheck but it is a loss in the article that Michael didn't mentioned the DPM lack or didn't investigate it before post the results.
                            Yeah, that just drives home why the OSS devs need to start targeting OpenCL in a big way, look how fast they jumped on 64 bit when it came out, HSA/OpenCL is the new game changer and OSS should be at the forefront of that technology.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by zanny View Post
                              You do have to consider the top of the line AMD parts are marked up at a price premium a bit. For example, the 5600k and 6600k are better bang for buck with slightly lower clock speeds.
                              They also have significantly slower GPUs and lack HSA support.

                              Stepping down from the A10-7850K to the A10-7700 incurs a drop from 512 shaders to 384 shaders. Which, if you OC the ram for increased memory bandwidth makes a pretty large difference as in both cases the GPU is still running at 720Mhz.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Kivada View Post
                                They also have significantly slower GPUs and lack HSA support.

                                Stepping down from the A10-7850K to the A10-7700 incurs a drop from 512 shaders to 384 shaders. Which, if you OC the ram for increased memory bandwidth makes a pretty large difference as in both cases the GPU is still running at 720Mhz.
                                But if you are looking at the A10-7850k, why not just get a 7770 + Athlon 750k? They cost the same, but would perform better. Slightly more expensive would be something like FX 6300 + 7870 / 270x, but that would crush the APU by at least twice the performance for only like 50% more cost.

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