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  • #31
    Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
    Apart from a few morons i don't thinks there is a problem with flaming. Most of the people understand that HW companies are just that. Organizations making money. Some are more "helpful" than others when it comes to FOSS but that doesn't mean that everyone in the management necessarily understand free and open or want to be free and open.
    damn right. they only care for free and open if they can make more money than with closed and slavery and the reality show the fact that they can make more money on slavery and closed stuff.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by necro-lover View Post
      damn right. they only care for free and open if they can make more money than with closed and slavery and the reality show the fact that they can make more money on slavery and closed stuff.
      I don't see making money as something bad. If you don't like their ways don't buy their products. ASAT.

      If AMD had a full featured (good performance, PM, VA, OpenCL etc) open driver i suspect they would be making much more from Linux and they would probably kick nvidia out of the linux market.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
        I don't see making money as something bad. If you don't like their ways don't buy their products. ASAT.

        If AMD had a full featured (good performance, PM, VA, OpenCL etc) open driver i suspect they would be making much more from Linux and they would probably kick nvidia out of the linux market.
        Good or Bad who cares about this childish anyway?

        They laugh at the Linux market. And the Linux people buy there (amd/nvidia/intel) products anyway.

        There is no need for them to chance anything because the people do not have a choice.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
          I don't see making money as something bad.
          You can either be a good fella or very rich fella.

          I don't remember who said this.

          The problem is that if monetary profits are made first priority; quality, reputation, relations, truth are sacrificed. Then, it is just a matter of time, before the pyramid breaks. There will be many affected customers and a lot of anger. Before the pyramid breaks, the money is usually removed from the system (forcing the breakage to come even faster) and the main "actor" tries to cover his tracks asap.

          Theory aside, look at current state of agriculture-, animal- and especially food markets. Especially, if you live in USA as most of the "profit technologies" are juridically allowed there and patent/know-how protection systems, as well as manufacturer-payed "research" prevent to uncover the true effect.

          Genetically modified species, large scale antibiotics-/pesticide- applications, growth hormones/nitrogen fertilizers, genetically modified soy-replacements paired with glutamates and/or artificial flavorings (to compensate for absence of natural flavorings), unhygienic, extremely bad conditions - are all methods for "fast moneymaking". I have spoken with people in food industry within Germany and idea is that human genomes are already heavily damaged. Our children will pay for "money making".

          Making money is a crime. It contradicts with making good fair product. Industry should be making good product instead. This is regulated by state, however, if industry takes over the state, this will lead to this.

          Continuous growth, by whichever means possible. Exactly as cancer.

          By the way... Bill Gates is contributing to making human genome bank... Maybe he will sponsor the "WGA"-equivalent injection into genome.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by tstrunk View Post
            Might I therefore suggest the following strategy for de-escalation: Michael could setup a forum, where only X developers and people selected by them (bridgeman for example) have access and everybody else only gets read access.
            I believe everyone of you has the same goal: To make the open driver better. The fragmented discussion in the current style will only make matters worse over time. In the single forum you can record your demands to AMD/ATI, bridgeman can answer and you can respond without people crying foul in between.
            I support this.

            Also, we, uninformed people DO trust people, those who actually write the code in the open driver. Not the ones who talk and/or misguide.

            The situation now from my, excuse me, uninformed point of view is that I think twice/or tripple, before buying AMD card.

            For example, 7750 or higher model, or 68xx model. AMD is aware of this, they find this loosing position completely acceptable.

            If compared to Intel, although, excuse me for my uninformed point of view, their hardware is relatively very primitive, the combination of CPU with driver DOES produce good results.

            I, the uninformed one (no sarcasm here), will gladly buy Intel hardware to use with Intel opensource driver. Intel is aware of this.


            My uninformed opinion is that this is pure planned management failure.


            //geforce(incl. nouveau)/intel hardware user

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
              You can either be a good fella or very rich fella.

              I don't remember who said this.
              Bullshit.

              Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
              The problem is that if monetary profits are made first priority; quality, reputation, relations, truth are sacrificed. Then, it is just a matter of time, before the pyramid breaks. There will be many affected customers and a lot of anger. Before the pyramid breaks, the money is usually removed from the system (forcing the breakage to come even faster) and the main "actor" tries to cover his tracks asap.

              Theory aside, look at current state of agriculture-, animal- and especially food markets. Especially, if you live in USA as most of the "profit technologies" are juridically allowed there and patent/know-how protection systems, as well as manufacturer-payed "research" prevent to uncover the true effect.

              Genetically modified species, large scale antibiotics-/pesticide- applications, growth hormones/nitrogen fertilizers, genetically modified soy-replacements paired with glutamates and/or artificial flavorings (to compensate for absence of natural flavorings), unhygienic, extremely bad conditions - are all methods for "fast moneymaking". I have spoken with people in food industry within Germany and idea is that human genomes are already heavily damaged. Our children will pay for "money making".

              Making money is a crime. It contradicts with making good fair product. Industry should be making good product instead. This is regulated by state, however, if industry takes over the state, this will lead to this.

              Continuous growth, by whichever means possible. Exactly as cancer.

              By the way... Bill Gates is contributing to making human genome bank... Maybe he will sponsor the "WGA"-equivalent injection into genome.
              We are not talking about pyramid schemes here. Someone is offering a product and someone -assuming the product fulfills his needs- buys it. Problems start only when you don't have enough choices. (which is the case in computing). The rest is taken care by market laws.

              On the genetically modified stuff you are in a great extend wrong. Genetic modification has been happening since the start of farming/agriculture etc. They were breeding selectively or were planting seeds from plants that had more fruits etc. Also science allowed us to feed more people than 200 years ago. Ask any farmer how much crop a field was producing 70 years ago. Everything is better. And its getting better by the day and by invention. And yes patents keep us back in a way.

              Also don't worry about human genomes. Nature has its way off sorting things like that. Evolution works (slowly ).

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                Bullshit.
                Its not. See for yourself your own phrase:

                Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                We are not talking about pyramid schemes here. Someone is offering a product and someone -assuming the product fulfills his needs- buys it. Problems start only when you don't have enough choices. (which is the case in computing). The rest is taken care by market laws.
                Monopolization is one of the requirements to shift into making money. You can either be good guy, or very rich guy.

                Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                On the genetically modified stuff you are in a great extend wrong. Genetic modification has been happening since the start of farming/agriculture etc. They were breeding selectively or were planting seeds from plants that had more fruits etc.
                This is not genetic modification. Selection is natural way to sort better, balanced, complete exemplars, indirect modification, modification of the environiment and challenge for the species to adopt themselves - if they can.
                At certain level, there is a barrier. If they can't, they die. Basta. You can't grow any animal 50 kg in 5 months, so that it stays healthy outside, inside and inside on genetic level.
                This is where the limit of "good guy" lies. Past the limit is the "rich guy".

                Do you know why most americans are fat-asses? I will give you a tip. Thats not because they don't move, its because of they eat.
                The 50kg baby from 1 to 5 months is possible, if you directly genetically modify the embryo (no selection here).
                Then, the embryo is fed with growth hormones. Baking or cooking such meat will not destroy majority of these substances, it is the magical secret of american fat-ass-dom. Food.
                Then, there is even more "rich guy" methods - maximize the outcome, minimize the farm area. Animals are stacked together (see your talk about monopoly above) in closed buildings without any windows. Very often even without light. They die and shit below. They panic. To compensate the stress and minimize the losses (yes, there are massive amounts of stress hormones and high infection level) they are injected with antibiotics.
                This is 50kg in 5 months. The rich guy version. Americans eat this. Cheap meat en masse equals high income. But the manufacturing costs are much much lower, for $5 steak the manufacturing costs lie below $2.

                Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                Also science allowed us to feed more people than 200 years ago. Ask any farmer how much crop a field was producing 70 years ago. Everything is better. And its getting better by the day and by invention. And yes patents keep us back in a way. Also don't worry about human genomes. Nature has its way off sorting things like that. Evolution works (slowly ).
                I have talked to farmers, have you? I know that you are very good hacker, but I am very sure you haven´t hacked good enough on this area. They buy corn, which is programmed to not give any seeds. Corn, which is tested and approved, but with certification authorities actually PAID by the corn maker itself, closing the loop. You can't attest anything bad about the corn - you will not get paid and you can't publish the results, because the work was conducted on money of the creator and as such stays under his copyright, you are full NDA.

                "The nature way of sorting things like that" is very simple - try to pump too much air into the balloon. The rest about escaping "rich guy" was written above.

                Why was I writing all this - this is the way Microsoft ticks. The way AMD current driver policy ticks. They are not "good guys", they are "rich guys". Mainstream, volume, fairy tale of no control and impotence of the individual.
                Last edited by crazycheese; 09-10-2012, 05:48 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I am no hacker.

                  My grandparents were farmers in an era where much more work was required and the harvest wasn't as good as today. I know the situation about the seeds -and i don't like it- but then again i think of all the benefits technology -and genetical engineering- gave us. Instead of waiting nature to evolve and make the seeds better scientist came in and did it faster.

                  Also keep in mind that even the cheapest meat today is far better than the meat people were eating 100 years ago.

                  I don't disagree that there are kinks in the whole thing but these get sorted out with time.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                    I support this.

                    Also, we, uninformed people DO trust people, those who actually write the code in the open driver. Not the ones who talk and/or misguide.

                    The situation now from my, excuse me, uninformed point of view is that I think twice/or tripple, before buying AMD card.

                    For example, 7750 or higher model, or 68xx model. AMD is aware of this, they find this loosing position completely acceptable.

                    If compared to Intel, although, excuse me for my uninformed point of view, their hardware is relatively very primitive, the combination of CPU with driver DOES produce good results.

                    I, the uninformed one (no sarcasm here), will gladly buy Intel hardware to use with Intel opensource driver. Intel is aware of this.


                    My uninformed opinion is that this is pure planned management failure.


                    //geforce(incl. nouveau)/intel hardware user
                    I really wonder, what you are doing in this thread?
                    1. You are uninformed
                    2. You currently don't use AMD products
                    3. You won't buy/use AMD products

                    I mean that in a funny kind of way... go and buy Nvidia, so you don't have to care about open source.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                      I am no hacker.

                      My grandparents were farmers in an era where much more work was required and the harvest wasn't as good as today. I know the situation about the seeds -and i don't like it- but then again i think of all the benefits technology -and genetical engineering- gave us. Instead of waiting nature to evolve and make the seeds better scientist came in and did it faster.

                      Also keep in mind that even the cheapest meat today is far better than the meat people were eating 100 years ago.

                      I don't disagree that there are kinks in the whole thing but these get sorted out with time.
                      Well, I still do some farming from time to time. I am helping my father. 100 years ago there were no steroids in meat. That is why Americans are so big. Also our bodies are adapted by evolution to digest current plants and animals. Introducing different kind of protein (as in soy), can have Unforeseen Consequences ( off-topic: Hello Black Mesa), including cancer.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Drago View Post
                        100 years ago there were no steroids in meat. That is why Americans are so big.
                        1) Please don't trawl for national stereotypes, it can work both ways and it's unpleasant for all concerned.
                        2) If you have a good source for saying that steroids in meat are a major cause of obesity then please cite it. Currently you've asserted it without backing it up.

                        Originally posted by Drago View Post
                        Introducing different kind of protein (as in soy), can have Unforeseen Consequences, including cancer.
                        Please cite a reputable source (i.e. a medical journal) for soy causing cancer. If you don't have a solid source then please don't spread FUD.

                        In any case, it seems that we've veered off-topic.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by disi View Post
                          I really wonder, what you are doing in this thread?
                          1. You are uninformed
                          2. You currently don't use AMD products
                          3. You won't buy/use AMD products

                          I mean that in a funny kind of way... go and buy Nvidia, so you don't have to care about open source.
                          Hi!

                          I bought HD4670 (80€, RMAed) and in a year had to cherry-pick HD4770 (120€, because evergreens were unsupported, pre HD5000 were already outdated and hard to find).
                          To use with AMD opensource driver.

                          Between 4670 and 4770, I had to buy and use 9800GT, because opensource driver was garbage and fglrx panic'ed the kernel when I switched tty's and had very slow 2D.
                          Mr. Bridgeman has explicitly recommended me to use Nvidia product.
                          With 9800GT problems were solved.

                          Then in a year, I had to search for an older card - hw accelerated 3d has appeared, but in open arena was running at 20fps, out of 300 possible. The PM didn't work, as almost every feature for which you buy discrete card.
                          This time I bought 260gtx used.

                          I am Linux desktop user.
                          I am here to state that AMD policy is to do ANYTHING to prevent opensource development.
                          I am here to state that AMD does EVERYTHING to make Linux desktop users buy OLD cards.
                          I am here to state that AMD does EVERYTHING to keep Linux desktop percentage very low.
                          I am here to state that AMD management refuses to change anything in situation or seek ways to improve it.
                          I was prevented by AMD to buy their cards 2 years ago.
                          AMD management has recommended me to buy Nvidia.

                          Below are AMD management policy analysis, based on management responses:

                          AMD 2-year-ago policy was to butcher the buyers into position to avoid buying their cards by not-supporting the opensource driver by any means possible.
                          No manpower->Bad driver->No buyers->Justification for not investing->(rewind)

                          Current AMD policy is to improve closed source driver and to keep macing anyone who goes for opensource.
                          No manpower->Bad open driver, no one wants to buy hardware for(1)->Use Catalyst instead(2)(5)->We won't open our secrets(3) - to small open driver market(4)->Justification for not investing in opensource, but in closed source (5) ->(rewind)

                          This are AMD management loops. Intel and Nvidia loops are at bottom for comparison.

                          Below are three quotes found in this article, which prove this self-breaking management loop. All quotes by AMD management:
                          1)
                          "If we have trouble getting approval to release a specific block of programming info, do you think we would have an easier time releasing the same info mixed with 5 million lines of proprietary source code, particularly when that source code is written to work across multiple OSes and most of those OSes *require* robust DRM as part of the design(2)?"
                          Remark number one: under Linux no DRM is required, fglrx can cut all DRM out.
                          Remark number two: this is used to justify closed source linux driver importance over opensource linux driver. It denotes the current policy to invest in closed driver.

                          2)
                          "The GPU business is *very* competitive, and small differences in performance & features drive many of the buying decisions.(1) The cost of driver development is the primary entry barrier for new competitors. Why would an established vendor give away their competitive advantage(3)?"
                          Remark number one: this demonstrates that AMD management understands that with bad driver - no one will buy the cards, resulting in small marketshare.
                          Remark number two: Intel gave away "advantages", which are patented anyway, and users have fast opensource driver and Intel has marketshare - contrary to AMD management claims.

                          3)
                          "Is it worth trying to match fglrx with the current code ? I don't think so (other than for r600 and below)(5). Is it worth improving the current code enough to give a bunch of current users full use of the profile mechanism (and maybe a few options in between), particularly on middling-old hardwere(4) ? I think so..."
                          Remark number one: two years ago fglrx was so broken, opensource driver was the only hope by many for a quality linux driver. Now, closed source driver is "suddenly" the new hope by AMD itself. Why? Because they pay for it!
                          Remark number two: "middling-old hardwere" and "bunch" are direct results of driver quality. There is no coincidence, that people who use opensource are "bunch" and use "middling-old hardwere". This is used to justify bad support of open driver further.

                          Nvidia management loop:
                          is it worth to support current linux market?->pay linux team to adopt x-platform closed source driver->driver is working for current cards? ->(rewind)
                          Remarks: Driver is not opensource - people still get offended, non-mainstream OSes are not supported. Driver works, hardware is bought. No questions if its Linux or not asked, goal is to give maximum support for hardware under any mainstream OS.

                          Intel management loop:
                          was the calculation of amount of investment is required for driver to work, appropriate (based on current global hardware marketshare)? -> aggregate the required financial amount -> improve the deficiencies for newer hardware with priority -> better marketshare -> (rewind)
                          Remarks: Opensource driver that works. Check recent linux marketshare changes to see Intel efficiently fight both AMD and Nvidia in low segments. Affects mostly AMD, because Nvidia has still good performance in high performance segment due to Intel hardware weaknesses.

                          I hope this answers your question.
                          Last edited by crazycheese; 09-11-2012, 05:57 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by archibald View Post
                            1) Please don't trawl for national stereotypes, it can work both ways and it's unpleasant for all concerned.
                            2) If you have a good source for saying that steroids in meat are a major cause of obesity then please cite it. Currently you've asserted it without backing it up.
                            https://www.google.com/search?q=anim...oid+human+meat

                            Originally posted by archibald View Post
                            Please cite a reputable source (i.e. a medical journal) for soy causing cancer. If you don't have a solid source then please don't spread FUD.
                            Andrés Carrasco. "GM soy: Sustainable? Responsible?"
                            This is wide known fact among oncologists that genetically modified soy-beans are cancer provoking. Natural soy is not. But natural soy is very rare and soy in common is used to replace/dither meat(up to 100%), reducing the taste. The latter "effect" is "compensated" with flavor-enhancers (glutamate, yeast(more modern approach)) which by themself are cancer provoking, or at higher replacement percentages by artificial flavorings which are heavily cancer provoking.
                            If you call this "FUD", I recommend you to do some serious research.

                            Originally posted by archibald View Post
                            In any case, it seems that we've veered off-topic.
                            Yes.
                            Original claim was "money making is good". As you can see, "money making" is good up to certain efficiency degree, going past this degree produces bad results and should be illegal, yet it is allowed.
                            Creating monopolies and cartels is one of the "bad moneymaking" practices, which are employed by microsoft and similar.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I am not so much interested in management. So you bought a HD4770, me too! This was >3 years ago and the open driver was unusable in the beginning. I wanted to follow its progress and stuck to it (couldn't game but thats ok), only ~3-6 months later there was a usuable driver for desktop and better on 2D than fglrx (when KMS became default and out of staging).

                              About 2 years later I got a new laptop with GTX460 (apps on full screen with a second monitor just didn't work, always streched and with xinerama no hw acceleration on the desktop and all the crap), kicked out the card and put in a 6970M which worked out of the box. I can play most games by now and have a fast desktop (apart from wine games even full screen works perfect)...

                              For the advise to buy Nvidia. I don't sell Linux or Linux Desktop. For people who just want to play games and use their computer like a toaster, use the Nvidia binary driver. At that time probably the better advise.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Google doesn't count as a source: a claim was made about steroids in meat causing obesity, therefore the onus is on the proponents of the claim to provide evidence, not on me to sift through Google's search results.

                                Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                                Andrés Carrasco. "GM soy: Sustainable? Responsible?"
                                Thanks for the report name, I'll take a look soon.

                                Originally posted by crazycheese View Post
                                If you call this "FUD", I recommend you to do some serious research.
                                I wasn't aware of the details either way on this, I was just pointing out that saying "X causes cancer" is FUD *unless* one has a good source to back it up.

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