Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Does anyone know when OpenSource ATI GPUs power options are fixed?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by schnelle View Post
    I have 4,5 year old laptop with mobility hd 2400 and dynpm is still not usable. Because of that my new laptop will be intel cpu+intel gpu too.
    Btw fglrx just sucks on my laptop.
    This I take just an example for the complaints and crying going on here.

    Okay, okay.
    Listen, people. (Or read.)


    1.
    There were numerous polls on phoronix where you could cast a vote "what is most important to you in GPU driver development".
    A lot of people wanted 3d stuff first.
    (I always voted for power management by the way.)

    2.
    Now let's imagine AMD-ATI had started with power management first. 1000s of people would be crying about the lack of 3d accel and whatsnot.

    3.
    Power management is among the most complicated parts. So it takes some time until it runs nicely everywhere on all the many chips. Look for the explanations agd5f gave somewhere here in the forums.

    4.
    You all are welcome to take a manpage, a book and some articles from the net "how to write Linux Kernel drivers or X.org or mesa drivers" and hack away.
    What? You can't? No time? You can't be bothered? Why do you then complain? The specifications are there (ok, let out that pesky UVD part) so "the community" can now hack a driver.
    And here you already have a good base to build upon, not even starting from scratch.
    You're also free to donate to pay more developers. There are not many enterprises actually hiring devs for freedom driver development like AMD does.

    5.
    There are things called "software patents". "intellectual property" and other things that might range from silly to more serious. The problem is, the US and some other countries are very strict about this stuff.
    So AMD has to go through a long minefield when releasing specs and writing code.
    Can you remember Carmack's hacks because of some patents (was it Creative's EAX or something?)? Everybody who wants to release code, specs or anything has to carefully make sure not to hit the mines. Especially if you once licensed 3rd party stuff in any form.
    Or if it touches digital restriction management like HDCP, BluRay decode, DVDCSS and stuff. (content mafia will complain!)
    AMD is going through a minefield. Nvidia keeps out of that buy sticking to their binary blob only. You can basically put all sorts of strange stuff into a binary blob and most people won't notice or be able to name the problem or violation of anything (privacy, I.P. and so on).
    Intel, well, I heard about some obfuscations in driver and they probably have a "slightly larger" juristic department for checking stuff before a release.

    6.
    Okay. Go on complaining and threatenting to buy non-AMD stuff.

    I wish you a happy time with your intel graphics.
    BUT: Don't come crying here!!
    a) if it doesn't provide you enough GPU power when you need it
    b) if you're bankrupt after buying their stuff
    c) if you are having so much fun with you Imagination Tech, PowerVR Poulsbo/... GPU that you're bursting into fucking tears because NOTHING works.
    In case you didn't know: Intel buys a lot of stuff. Also from these folks. And sells it as "intel" graphics.
    Later people wonder why nothing would work.
    d) if one day only intel would be there as sole manufacturer of x86 and GPUs, wow, people, trust me, that would be the end of computer world. My experience from the very late 80s early 90s tell me that this would be really dark then. Only P4 style heatplates, no innovations and all that would be sold for 1000s of Dollars or Euros per piece. No thanks, I don't want to see intel in a monopoly position ever again.
    e) planning to set up a nice webpage with news about movie releases on DVD for example? Calling it like www.dvd-inside.something? Awww. Wait a few days and receive the cease and desist paper from intel's lawyers. Because you used the simple word "inside". Lawl! That actually happened. So yeah, go trust a company that sues harmless people for using a simple English word.


    7.
    Planning on anything else, yeah?
    Okay, go ahead.
    I personally have seen a lot of GPUs and I am so sure I do not want them.
    Nvidia might be okay depending on the driver release of their binary blob. Sometimes it was good sometime it was definitely not.
    Oh, shit, my nvidia GPUs are already legacy and no longer supported. What a drag.
    Nouveau? Respect to these people but I know that project from the time it started. I had real hopes for my (now old) cards but to this time they still won't really work much. I don't blame these folks since reverse engineering is among the nastiest and most nerve consuming things to do. Oh, nvidia won't sue them. Well, if you can call that support...
    And nvidia keeps throwing new hardware on the marked (also their stuff that is directed to the embedded scene) faster than anybody can catch up with rev. engineering.
    Yet my NV11, NV20 from around 2002 still don't really work as good as my far more recent Radeon chips do.

    I've had or seen enough of SiS, VIA and other chips. You will 200% sure not be happy with that unless you like to be with VESA drivers or drivers close to VESA capabilities. I doubt there is an alternative among them.

    Of course the free AMD drivers are not perfect in every case but for me it's the best solution I have seen yet. And it is actually backed by the enterprise.

    8.
    Can you be sure that in a laptop it's coming from the GPU? There are other places to waste power, too!
    Can you be sure you configured it correctly? Can you be sure you have a plain ATI chip and not something modified by the laptop vendor?
    If you can rule out all others and you are actually sure it is the GPU throwing away the power then yes, then you can complain and please file a bug report. If you don't file a bug report the devs are not able to see your problem and can't do anything about it. It probably needs more than "aww, noes, my graphic chips doesn't work". They will likely need far more detailed info to find out where the bug is located. If it is a bug in the driver or hardware.
    But in laptops I'm not sure it is easy to determine which component(s) are wasting power. E.g. once there was sold a laptop with a Transmeta chip, the CPU taking up maybe a single watt. Still that whole thing would not keep battery powered longer than 2h.


    So keep these points in mind when you complain. Of course if something doesn't work as intended it's okay to be angry or feeling the need to complain. But please double check before you're being harsh to a company which actually moved towards the community and brought a lot of gifts with them, okay?

    And that is not just because I'm a stupid fanboy.

    Comment


    • #32
      I *hate* intel graphics (because the chips suck and because the driver is somehow more unstable than nouveau), *but* let's face reality:
      - An APU does use less power than a discrete card, so bye bye nvidia
      - fglrx? Even if I'm willing to use proprietary code (which I'm *NOT*) I just can't wait an year to support a new kernel or xorg release, fglrx is probably the most terrible user experience you can face.
      - AMD's apu? Why should I buy a slow cpu instead of a fast one and a slow gpu instead of a discrete one if the only one point in favor (power consumption) will be blown away by the absence of proper power management? The current implementation may be enough *IF* it works. Unfortunately dynpm did work properly only in *ONE* of the many discrete cards I tested.
      - Intel's apu? The cpu rocks but the vga sucks, also the driver is *really* unstable (no, I will not use the components listed in the quarterly updates), *BUT*: proper power management, even if the gpu chip is slower it's still *much* faster than an AMD apu because radeon sucks and is very cpu limited, you have proper video acceleration, support out of the box months before the release...

      For a desktop I can't care less for power management, but in a laptop is simply CRITICAL.
      ## VGA ##
      AMD: X1950XTX, HD3870, HD5870
      Intel: GMA45, HD3000 (Core i5 2500K)

      Comment


      • #33
        - AMD's apu? Why should I buy a slow cpu instead of a fast one and a slow gpu instead of a discrete one if the only one point in favor (power consumption) will be blown away by the absence of proper power management?
        Why both $ and perf/$. For the price of one E-450 laptop you can only get Atoms, which lose cpuwise. And gpuwise a lot, especially if equipped with PowerVR graphics.

        Perhaps you were comparing llano to sandy though?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by curaga View Post
          Why both $ and perf/$.
          [...]
          Perhaps you were comparing llano to sandy though?
          I do care only for performance/watt in a laptop.
          ## VGA ##
          AMD: X1950XTX, HD3870, HD5870
          Intel: GMA45, HD3000 (Core i5 2500K)

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by curaga View Post
            For the price of one E-450 laptop you can only get Atoms, which lose cpuwise.
            Nope. For the price of an E-450, you can get Sandy Bridge-based Pentiums and Celerons. Helluva lot faster than Atom. Also, Sandy Bridge graphics does OpenGL3 and hardware video decoding via VAAPI, both of which Atom graphics (GMA3150) does not. The video decoding part is something not even E-450 will get you, not with an open driver.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by curaga View Post
              Why both $ and perf/$. For the price of one E-450 laptop you can only get Atoms
              And for just a little bit more you can get a laptop with a Sandy Bridge Core i3 processor, which is significantly faster than the E-450.

              Comment


              • #37
                Well, I just checked: the price difference between cheapest e-450 laptop and i3 laptop is 205 €. And that i3 is not even Sandy, it's Arrandale (previous gen).
                Two hundred is not pocket change.

                Comment


                • #38
                  I don't know about the prices in your country. But since there are so many Germans here, let's take that country for example

                  Cheapest E-450 (without Windows) 299:
                  http://www.amazon.de/Lenovo-S205-Not...dp/B00603ID64/

                  Cheapest E-450 (with Windows) 349:
                  http://www.amazon.de/Lenovo-S205-Zol...dp/B00603IDJG/

                  Cheapest Sandy Bridge Core i3 (with Windows) 399:
                  http://www.amazon.de/X54C-SO407D-Not...dp/B007RL8P70/

                  So only 50 euro difference.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
                    I don't know about the prices in your country. But since there are so many Germans here, let's take that country for example

                    Cheapest E-450 (without Windows) 299:
                    http://www.amazon.de/Lenovo-S205-Not...dp/B00603ID64/

                    Cheapest E-450 (with Windows) 349:
                    http://www.amazon.de/Lenovo-S205-Zol...dp/B00603IDJG/

                    Cheapest Sandy Bridge Core i3 (with Windows) 399:
                    http://www.amazon.de/X54C-SO407D-Not...dp/B007RL8P70/

                    So only 50 euro difference.
                    Check the details. X54C-SO407D is shipped with Linux.

                    If you look a bit harder you could get a i3 HP G6-1254SG for 380 but also a E-450 HP 635 for 280. Still 100 difference, that's 36% for the HP!

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Then again, in the user surveys video acceleration usually ranks higher than power management, so maybe it shouldn't be a surprise at all (but it *does* make it all the more surprising that people are complaining about us "wasting our time" working on video acceleration). We did commit to making a serious effort to get UVD acceleration into the open source drivers, and I felt it was important for us to do what we said.
                      Well, I think that the power management with AMD chips is good enough (comparable with Intels') when I bought my asus 1215B (E-350). Alas, It's not. I know, I know, it's entirely my fault as I didn't surveyed for this first.

                      And with the PM thing, I know this is important thing after I HAVE an AMD APU on a laptop. If not, I think I just blindly accept that AMD, NVidia, and Intel PM is equal on level.

                      Keep up the good work, everybody (at AMD). Me (and the other too) like to abandon Intel ship if your drivers is good enough .

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by AnonymousCoward View Post
                        I don't know about the prices in your country. But since there are so many Germans here, let's take that country for example ...
                        No! Germany is not a good example. Electronics here are way higher priced than anywhere else in the world. It really sucks here sometimes. And we currently have a stupid gouvernment.
                        Besides: It's hard to compare these laptops. Sometimes Windows comes with preinstalled Adware (the yellow plague (Symantec) as trial version) to make it cheaper, then you will find hardware differences aplenty (HDD/SSD, RAM, BIOS chip, opt. drive, all the chips, screen matte or glossy) and even then you still have different manufactureres, normally Dell and Lenovo tend to be higher priced than ECS, Asus and all these guys. Partially they are better crafted, that is something you can't see when just looking at the normal tech specs. Also a lot of chips types are not given, which makes me sometimes really angry. As Linux user you want to know exactly what is used for Wlan, Lan, softmoden, Audio, SuperIO, BIOS chip (flashrom anyone?) etc. so you can check for compatibility. Also here, these chips can make a difference in price. Oh and then you also have the case, the housiung, some use Al/Mg some use just plastics. And the fans. Some try rise margins by adding cheapo fans that make a lot of noise. And you never read about that unless you check user reviews. So I think it isn't easy to compare Notebooks that way.

                        Sadly AMD wasn't treated well in past times by notebook vendors. If you finally found something than the vendors tried to keep it as cheap as possible and combined the AMD stuff sometimes with horrible chipsets or even worse - glossy screens (OMG-the-horror). Luckily situation seems to improve and there is more choice. On a notebook a lot of things have to play with each other it's not just the CPU and GPU.

                        The idea of better power management as GSoC project sounds nice but afaik enrolling phase is already over. But then I don't know if company bound projects are accepted by G or by the students.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Adarion View Post
                          This I take just an example for the complaints and crying going on here.

                          Okay, okay.
                          Listen, people. (Or read.)

                          1.There were numerous polls on phoronix where you could cast a vote "what is most important to you in GPU driver development".
                          A lot of people wanted 3d stuff first.
                          (I always voted for power management by the way.)

                          2. Now let's imagine AMD-ATI had started with power management first. 1000s of people would be crying about the lack of 3d accel and whatsnot.

                          3. Power management is among the most complicated parts. So it takes some time until it runs nicely everywhere on all the many chips. Look for the explanations agd5f gave somewhere here in the forums.

                          4.You all are welcome to take a manpage, a book and some articles from the net "how to write Linux Kernel drivers or X.org or mesa drivers" and hack away.
                          What? You can't? No time?
                          You're also free to donate to pay more developers. There are not many enterprises actually hiring devs for freedom driver development like AMD does.

                          5.There are things called "software patents". "intellectual property" and other things that might range from silly to more serious. The problem is, the US and some other countries are very strict about this stuff.
                          So AMD has to go through a long minefield when releasing specs and writing code.

                          6. Okay. Go on complaining and threatenting to buy non-AMD stuff.

                          I wish you a happy time with your intel graphics.
                          BUT: Don't come crying here!!
                          a) if it doesn't provide you enough GPU power when you need it
                          b) if you're bankrupt after buying their stuff
                          c) if you are having so much fun with you Imagination Tech, PowerVR Poulsbo/... GPU that you're bursting into fucking tears because NOTHING works.
                          In case you didn't know: Intel buys a lot of stuff. Also from these folks. And sells it as "intel" graphics.
                          Later people wonder why nothing would work. happened. So yeah, go trust a company that sues harmless people for using a simple English word.

                          7. Planning on anything else, yeah?
                          Okay, go ahead.
                          I personally have seen a lot of GPUs and I am so sure I do not want them.

                          And that is not just because I'm a stupid fanboy.
                          Yes, you are. You're an idiot.

                          I should have stopped reading after #1 but let's answer your stupid points.

                          #1. So, pathetic AMD won't support their products in Linux because of a stupid poll?!? REALLY?!?
                          Next.
                          #2. So, they're incapable of doing both?!? In other words, they're incompetent? That doesn't bode well for getting AMD hardware then.
                          Next.
                          #3. So, the guy who still can't get power management for hardware that's over 5 years old should just concede that AMD can't support something that's over 5 years old because it's too complicated? What does that mean for customers that have bought brand new AMD mobile gpu laptops and cards?!? Wow, should I even bother with any of your other STUPID points?!?
                          Next.
                          #4. MAYBE AMD SHOULD SUPPORT THEIR HARDWARE IN LINUX?!? MAYBE SOMEONE MIGHT TRY WRITING SOMETHING FOR THEIR HARDWARE WHEN THEIR OWN PEOPLE DO?!? MAYBE THEY MIGHT STOP BEING SOOOOOOOOO PRO-WINDOWS AND ACTUALLY SUPPORT LINUX FOR A CHANGE?!?
                          #5. More BS excuses.
                          Next.
                          #6. Yeah, it's a good idea to NOT buy AMD hardware, at least, not graphics hardware, if someone wants to use Linux. Since, AMD obviously doesn't have a policy of supporting Linux, you have two other sh*tty options or alternatives but at least there will be some support with the other companies. Nvidia, at least, doesn't profess to have open source support like the lying AMD does. Intel at least has open source support even if their graphics hardware isn't that good.

                          But, I think Intel is investing in other computer hardware. Oh yeah, AMD is, too, but their cooling and efficiency sucks, too, with their processors and boards from what I read. But, they go out of their way to assert Linux support when it's a bunch of crap.

                          How often does one read here of problems and lack of support for each release of drivers and features that never arrive?

                          'Fanboys' of hardware usually aren't that bright. Why be a 'fanboy' of any company?!? It makes little sense.
                          Last edited by Panix; 04-10-2012, 07:49 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Hi Panix;

                            Just in case you have forgotten (it seems that you might have done so), there are two drivers not one :

                            - an AMD-developed driver which *does* include all the things you say we don't provide and which *is* developed at the same time as the hardware (or at least the same time as the Windows driver)

                            - an open source driver developed by the community with support from AMD, which isn't fully caught up with new hardware support and features but which has added ~10 years of new hardware and features in ~5 years so catching up the rest of the way seems pretty likely (with the caveat that DRM issues are always hanging over our collective heads)

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              Hi Panix;

                              Just in case you have forgotten (it seems that you might have done so), there are two drivers not one :

                              - an AMD-developed driver which *does* include all the things you say we don't provide and which *is* developed at the same time as the hardware (or at least the same time as the Windows driver)

                              - an open source driver developed by the community with support from AMD, which isn't fully caught up with new hardware support and features but which has added ~10 years of new hardware and features in ~5 years so catching up the rest of the way seems pretty likely (with the caveat that DRM issues are always hanging over our collective heads)
                              The first one would be great if its sole purpose wasn't to hide what it was doing from the user, and therefore becoming malicious software.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Oh good, since that is by no means its sole purpose. The "proprietary" aspect is just a consequence of sharing common code written for use across all OSes.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X