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  • #31
    Right. And don't get me wrong, I also think it'd be a good thing that communication between end users and developers would improve. It's just that this requires work both on part of end users and developers to happen in a useful fashion. Developers need to invest time on docco (which most developers hate doing) on what they're doing Right Now and end users need to get the basic knowledge required to understand what it is developers say they're doing.
    Personally I find it a bit worrying that we end up asking so often for clarification all the time from bridgman when he's actually supposed to be the middle-man between developers and AMD, not developers and end-users. Isn't this something that should actively be worked on to avoid a serious communication failure in the future if bridgman suddenly stops being there to answer the questions?


    • #32
      Originally posted by HokTar View Post

      In the example I assumed that there will be a gsoc project for this during the summer.

      There is a file in Mesa3d covering the current state of OpenGL 3.0

      My understanding is: First comes Mesa3d support for OpenGL 3.0, then comes accelerated driver support. IIRC Bridgman indicated that Evergreen was their current priority (which makes sense from a business standpoint).

      I am not sure if VMWare are actually interested in adding OpenGL 3.0 to Mesa3D, so I don't really know who would be behind the push. It may be Intel, based on their general reliance on Gallium.


      • #33
        [QUOTE=HokTar;121694]Yeah, I'm not competent in these questions. My point was that general end-users (like me) would be interested in things like this.

        Hi HokTar,

        There is a file GL3.txt in Mesa3d (->mesa->mesa->tree->docs->GL3.txt) that describes the current state of OpenGL in MESA.

        Basically, until Mesa3d supports OpenGL 3.0, support in individual graphics cards is a little academic.

        Mesa is owned by VMWare and Zack the main developer employs him, so I don't know how much effort is being put into OpenGL 3.0. I did hear that Intel are very interested, as their graphics drivers are Gallium only.

        With the advent of OpenCL, I am expecting a big ramp up in Enterprise requirements for graphics card support. I am not party to what the big guys (IBM, SGI and HP) are thinking though


        • #34
          Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post

          I too have created a username specially to decloak and have a rant. I would like to share my real-world experience with being a developer on an Open Source project (I worked on a fairly complex video project on Sourceforge).

          I found that working on Open Source was a real pain. The theory that people will come and "help" is simply not true. You get lots of people complaining, telling you how you are wrong (despite them obviously not having a clue), and lots... lots... lots... of University students asking you to do their course work for them.

          So, I quit doing that work and got a job. Lo and Behold: (1) Money - quite a lot of it (2) You don't have to deal with idiots on mailing lists (3) Managers who are paid to talk to ***PAYING*** customers (and we are not talking $50 for a graphics card here) (4) Did I mention being paid money?

          I really don't know why agd5f and Bridgman still post here. Frankly I wouldn't bother with all the repeated questions and crap they have to deal with. It's not like they have any control over the number of developers that AMD assign to the Open Source projects (it looks like three or four).

          I have taken a look through the Radeon code and even without a lot of 3D experience, I can see that these guys know their stuff. I can also see that there would be people willing to pay good money for 3D support on Linux (and I am not thinking about people trying to run games under Wine). I would recommend that AMD and NVidia stop wasting their time producing free Linux drivers and start charging maybe $150 per user per year for paying customers.

          Trust me, in the proprietary world, you wouldn't get near to guys with this much skill and knowledge, even if you paid loads of money for support you'd be routed to customer support in India.

          If you don't like what the Radeon guys do, then buy a Nvidia or Intel card or something. The Nvidia driver locks up my machine hard when doing 3D BTW.

          If you think that you can do the development, I neither believe you have the skill, nor that you would invest the necessary time. Point me to your site on SourceForge to prove me wrong (if you do, you'll have a lot of respect from me).

          I love Open Source and think that it is really amazing because I couldn't afford to buy Solaris or other high-end software, much less get to see how it works at source code level. Let's face it though: Most open source is simply freeloading off Red Hat and Novell's paying customers.

          End rant. I hope agd5f et al hang around here, ATI video drivers aren't my main interest in life, but I like hearing from real developers working on real code.
          hey all your writing is just saying why is opensource the best ever!

          i can never touch bill-gates by writing a email to him!

          But i can touch Linus just by sending him a email!

          thats the best @opensource

          Heil to OpenSource!


          • #35
            i understand many users are interested in the OSS specially since is going so well in many sectors already, but i think is important the end user understand this, radeon new driver along all the stuff within are still under heavy development, so at this point is not easy for developers have any sort of time schedule cuz well many things can go wrong before get there.

            so until many basic implementations are there and get stable enough to begin the optimization process is hard to developer to meet shcedules. so i guess for now the best you can do is read the git summary (maybe someone can point out an easy way to expliain it in a sticky thread maybe). so that way at least you can have some info until the schedule are something actually possible.

            other thing is for now expect nothing more that a future good enough gl 2.1 implementation cuz well gl 3.3 or 4.0 are a whole monster on it own. so this feature probably will take more time to get usable. (beside there is very few softwware for GL 3.3 or 4.0 rigth now, so it wont be easy to debug until these actually change)


            • #36
              Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
              hey all your writing is just saying why is opensource the best ever!

              i can never touch bill-gates by writing a email to him!

              But i can touch Linus just by sending him a email!

              thats the best @opensource

              Heil to OpenSource!

              Yup. If you've ever had to go through 6 meetings with different managers and various levels of NDA, just to clarify the use of an API with a developer at a partner company, you appreciate how amazing being able to talk to agd5f is.


              • #37
                Originally posted by HokTar View Post

                If you remember I asked you back in February about the "Plan" for the oss driver, i.e. what will/is going to be the schedule for development. I know that you can't give release dates for the features, but a continuously updated ETA would be still helpful. The order in which the features will be implemented is in my opinion _essential_! Having that you guys might have been able to avoid these type of threads...

                I think about something like this:
                - openGL 3.x: we first need it to be implemented in mainline mesa, afterwards it should take about 2 months so you might expect it around October
                simple the plan is simple!
                Mesa7.9devel= openGL2.1 for all cards
                mesa8.0 devel= OpenGL3 for dx10 cards!

                thats the plan!

                after mesa8.0 they wana bring all cards to galium3D
                and then they build openCL for galium3D and all cards

                after that they wana build a shader based viedeo acceleration encode and decode!
                openCL is importand for this thats because AMD BUY devs to make this in OpenCL:


                • #38

                  I completely agree with you.

                  One clarification though:
                  I mentioned ETA. I know all dev hate this. I also know that it is often just impossible to give a reasonable ETA. (I study as a mechanical engineer so I have clue.)
                  The emphasise was on the first part in the example which clarifies what is needed before one can start working on a feature.
                  Even more important is a _roadmap_ that lays down the "Plan" i.e. the order in which the features will be implemented. E.g.: first stable kms then we can start working on power management.
                  I'm missing this latter part.


                  • #39
                    The "KMS and Gallium crap" IS the open-source implementation of what the FGLRX and nVidia blob do internally.

                    At the moment when AMD put the effort into the Open Source drivers, there was NO open-source infrastructure that did what needed to be done. And their binary blob could not be open-sourced for a variety of reasons.

                    The nVidia and ATi binary drivers consist of millions of lines of code which was made by a team of dozens of full-time programmers over more than 10 years. You are expecting three or four guys to replicate that work in a year.

                    You are not being realistic.
                    At last, a human post from someone that knows what he is talking about and is right on point.
                    Sorry for calling you a "monkey auto bot" in your first reply here, you have proven me completely wrong.

                    The project still fails to deliver, but now I fully understand why, and also why it can't deliver anytime soon. But this is fair I think.

                    This is the end of gordboy-fan, cu guys.


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
                      Yup. If you've ever had to go through 6 meetings with different managers and various levels of NDA, just to clarify the use of an API with a developer at a partner company, you appreciate how amazing being able to talk to agd5f is.
                      o yes..i feel it!... the freedome of doing think just because its the right to do that!

                      in my point of view the open-source devs have one of the best jobs all over the world..

                      be payed for spending your work to the hole world and become a star like 'Linus'

                      be cool like a alive 'Jesus' Holy hail free-software 'god'

                      be sure RMS bless you my child!