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  • #46
    Originally posted by mugginz View Post
    I see your point, though I'm usually prepared to look through the manner in which someone is conveying their points and instead focus solely on the points they're trying to make. But everyone has their own limits I guess. It can be challenging to keep your cool while someone is being quite aggressive in their manner but in the end it's usually worthwhile.

    One of the best reasons to focus on someone's points and not their style though is that their style can become irrelevant if you're able to destroy the basis of their points . By the same token you can sometimes uncover little nuggets of gold in someones arguments which were initially covered in the mud of an ugly or aggressively forthright style.
    Hi,

    I am sorry to sound like a corporate tie-wearer (you may have already figured out that that is what I am ) but I have worked in the industry a fair few years, and I have never seen any problem solved by people having a shout at a team member who may or may not have messed up.

    I'd love to hear lots of discussions about features and timescales and the chances to hit each of them given their complexities. That is fun and interesting and constructive.

    Picking a controversial username and making emotional and generalised statements about the project's bugginess is not going to work. In fact, it is a waste of people's time, leading to people getting rather annoyed (you must realise that I have been following Mesa3D this site for a long time now and only now have created an account).

    This may be a culture thing. I am personally not interested in being l33t or taking over the Universe with Linux. I have to look at the evolution of GPU cards to make predictions of what technology customers will be buying in five years time.

    You know: I need to make money so that we can pay for people to work on projects, so that you get free ATI drivers

    So, just for me, please remember that there are some serious people who are working in this forum... Maybe I'll play Quake on ATI one day, but for the moment I'd like to follow AMD's strategy on OS GPU computation assist in Linux and its integration into Opteron servers from agd5d and Bridgman!

    This can't happen if their bosses at AMD were to tell them not to post here...

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by mugginz View Post
      How many of you readers out there see the hypocrisy in those that rally against both gordboy and gordboy-fan.
      Excuse me, I've just seen so much trolling and ban evasion and continued trolling and the troll impersonating completely different people in my life that I've gotten pretty cynical. The core of the conversation was somewhat valid imo - something which was stepped upon after the accusatory comments stopped. Communication between end-users and developers is a tricky thing. Unless you strive to improve it all the time, it tends to degrade by itself. (since a degree of laziness is a human trait and people start doing things the easy way if possible) That is, end-users need to constantly keep up with a Sufficient (tm) level of background knowledge and developers need to give a Sufficient (tm) amount of information on what they're doing and what they're planning to do.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
        So, just for me, please remember that there are some serious people who are working in this forum... Maybe I'll play Quake on ATI one day, but for the moment I'd like to follow AMD's strategy on OS GPU computation assist in Linux and its integration into Opteron servers from agd5d and Bridgman!
        *shrug* I was just playing Nexuiz at 1920x1080 with full effects and texture compression set to quality on my 3870 with KMS and it seemed to still be playably fast. If I used the recommended effect levels, it was nice and smooth.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by nanonyme View Post
          Excuse me, I've just seen so much trolling and ban evasion and continued trolling and the troll impersonating completely different people in my life that I've gotten pretty cynical.
          Trolling is a fact of life both in meat-space and the internet as we all know. I guess some just couldn't resist the urge to jump in (some with all guns ablazing themselves.) As for whether Gordboy-Fan is really Gordboy himself, I'm not prepared to make that leap without some real reason to think so.

          Originally posted by nanonyme View Post
          The core of the conversation was somewhat valid imo
          Indeed the core may of had some merit or at least warranted an airing. I'm not a fan of the way he went about it though and obviously others weren't either. What I find interesting is that after a while others took the same tone and some could've been considered even worse than Gordboy at some points. It's hard for me to stomach the demands for him to be banned for a style of behavior that others were also displaying without those others also being banned. I guess I'm just a stickler for consistency.

          Originally posted by nanonyme View Post
          - something which was stepped upon after the accusatory comments stopped. Communication between end-users and developers is a tricky thing. Unless you strive to improve it all the time, it tends to degrade by itself. (since a degree of laziness is a human trait and people start doing things the easy way if possible) That is, end-users need to constantly keep up with a Sufficient (tm) level of background knowledge and developers need to give a Sufficient (tm) amount of information on what they're doing and what they're planning to do.
          Well he was certainly being accusatory, but I personally don't think that in itself warrants bannage. Some made their points while remaining decent and others not so much. As always, if someone's saying something someone else doesn't like, one option is to counter their points with other facts but there's always an option for any of us to just "change the channel"

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
            Hi,

            I am sorry to sound like a corporate tie-wearer (you may have already figured out that that is what I am ) but I have worked in the industry a fair few years, and I have never seen any problem solved by people having a shout at a team member who may or may not have messed up.
            Yes, a shouting match is never the best way forward in order to achieve something constructive although I gather that Gordboy was trying to use a confrontational stance to try to effect change that he thought wasn't going to happen any other way.

            Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
            I'd love to hear lots of discussions about features and timescales and the chances to hit each of them given their complexities. That is fun and interesting and constructive.
            Thankfully for the most part that's what goes on here.

            Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
            Picking a controversial username and making emotional and generalised statements about the project's bugginess is not going to work. In fact, it is a waste of people's time, leading to people getting rather annoyed (you must realise that I have been following Mesa3D this site for a long time now and only now have created an account).
            Well his stance isn't exactly the best way to win friends that's for sure. It's easy to see red when it appears that someone's being confrontational or unfair which can lead to a loss of perspective in an observer leading them to themselves behave in a similar way. I think it would've been better for some to have simply walk away (not that this is an easy think to do by any means.

            Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
            This may be a culture thing. I am personally not interested in being l33t or taking over the Universe with Linux. I have to look at the evolution of GPU cards to make predictions of what technology customers will be buying in five years time.

            You know: I need to make money so that we can pay for people to work on projects, so that you get free ATI drivers

            So, just for me, please remember that there are some serious people who are working in this forum... Maybe I'll play Quake on ATI one day, but for the moment I'd like to follow AMD's strategy on OS GPU computation assist in Linux and its integration into Opteron servers from agd5d and Bridgman!
            I myself have serious uses for my machine as well which is perhaps what drives some of the seriousness in which I take the issues surrounding Linux graphics.

            Originally posted by OneTimeShot View Post
            This can't happen if their bosses at AMD were to tell them not to post here...
            I still think it's possible for the professionals that fequent these forums to ignore what one considers unfair statements and to instead continue to discuss things in the other more productive threads of which there are thankfully many .

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by mugginz View Post
              I see your point, though I'm usually prepared to look through the manner in which someone is conveying their points and instead focus solely on the points they're trying to make. But everyone has their own limits I guess. It can be challenging to keep your cool while someone is being quite aggressive in their manner but in the end it's usually worthwhile.

              One of the best reasons to focus on someone's points and not their style though is that their style can become irrelevant if you're able to destroy the basis of their points . By the same token you can sometimes uncover little nuggets of gold in someones arguments which were initially covered in the mud of an ugly or aggressively forthright style.
              gordboy wasnt banned cuz he put pressure or touch a sensitive point or anything, it was only because he just post useless information without any sort of informational background (claiming he is a developer) in a very violent and abusive fashion.

              one thing is a properly made post like

              Title: doubt about what is holding this release
              body: hey guyz i realised that a year is passed and there is no release of the ddx 6.13, can anyone explain me what is holding it exactly? maybe i can help in something?

              you expect when someone post something so agrresive, at least he have make an extensive analisys about the code and the dependencies of that code an have a serious technical point about that topic.

              on the other hand gordboy post was a complete nonsense, spiting in the face of the ppl that do this awesome job, without even read some code first to at least post some acceptable point, lol he didint even realize KMS wasnt out of staging until recently(big fat reason to not release a DDX, which actually depend on it heavily).

              so when the the ppl that at least read the code or watch git's summarys , test the driver everyday in ther jobs or home, report bugs and is basically very happy with the current progress, read a title like: "release or step aside" and the content is just FUD full of violent content and nonexistant conspiracies from a guy that doesnt even know how the driver is interconected at api level (i have my doubts if that guy really have used the OSS driver btw), well mate you win one hell of a flame for trolling.

              to answer your post no gordboy didnt post anything valuable not a point nor an idea nor a contribution, and his way of write just made it worse.
              at the end this is not a forum made for end users, this forum is made to techies that want to share ideas or experiences in this topics, ofc any user can come and ask question to solve doubts or problems. but when you post up to certain language you need to have the minimal technical background to do it, this is not facebook or myspace, you know.

              so ok he wanted to know why the release taked so long, well for a guy who claim who is an experienced dev since 30 years ago, he could read the git commit logs, check bugzilla (and realize there was a couple of bug pending) even maybe download the source to check maybe what actually need the driver to work (dependencies) and even lol check the bugzilla of those dependcies to at minimal see if there is a urgent fix or something that could hold the release and then ask properly informed, dont you think that is the rigth thing to do?.

              now if he is just lying and he is not a dev, well ok like many ppl, you can ask as a civilized homo sapien, that someone explain him this or that, so he can properly understand and even maybe post a contribution or an idea that could eventually help to release the driver faster, dont you think that is the rigth thing to do?.

              so can you explain to me, why having so much information, previous post, the code it self, and god knows how many civilized way to actually make that simple question in a decent fashion, we need to tolerate him especially since his post or contribution are basically around 0?. in fact all he post is that kind post all over around, some more insultive sometimes even more insulting and the only common factor in those post is that he dont have the minimal clue of what is he talking about, and made it a fact he never bother in find previous or important info before post.

              note:
              bugzilla= bugzilla/mailing lists, wikis, etc. im just lazy to write them all 1 by 1

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                gordboy wasnt banned cuz he put pressure or touch a sensitive point or anything, it was only because he just post useless information without any sort of informational background (claiming he is a developer) in a very violent and abusive fashion.

                one thing is a properly made post like

                Title: doubt about what is holding this release
                body: hey guyz i realised that a year is passed and there is no release of the ddx 6.13, can anyone explain me what is holding it exactly? maybe i can help in something?
                That was essentially what he was getting at. He was getting at that in an abrasive manner. Some others were also being abrasive themselves. There seems to be some inconsistency there.

                Further, his ban seemed to be in response to when he posted the following:
                Originally posted by gordboy View Post
                There isn't going to be a ban. Which makes you yet another bully. When are you people going to realise that ganging up on someone makes the forum look bad ?

                There are many more readers than members. And they will have drawn their own conclusions.
                The very next post was from Michael who posted:
                Originally posted by Michael View Post
                Oh really? You've been banned for two weeks to settle down. If you continue to cause issues with many other users, it will result in a permanent ban.
                It did look a little reactionary to the challenge put up by Gordboy and his assertion that he wasn't going to get banned.

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                you expect when someone post something so agrresive, at least he have make an extensive analisys about the code and the dependencies of that code an have a serious technical point about that topic.
                His point was that the release was taking too long in his view. He did this in an agressive way. Others could of left it at something along the lines of "You have no right to demand anything of the developers" or "Why aren't you helping the developers get the release out". While some did indeed make statements to that effect, others said that while at the same time being equally abrasive.

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                on the other hand gordboy post was a complete nonsense, spiting in the face of the ppl that do this awesome job,
                Again, I don't agree with the point he was making, or do I agree with the way he was conveying it. I do not however accept that he was the only person displaying undesirable behaviour.

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                ...without even read some code first to at least post some acceptable point, lol he didint even realize KMS wasnt out of staging until recently(big fat reason to not release a DDX, which actually depend on it heavily).

                so when the the ppl that at least read the code or watch git's summarys , test the driver everyday in ther jobs or home, report bugs and is basically very happy with the current progress, read a title like: "release or step aside" and the content is just FUD full of violent content and nonexistant conspiracies from a guy that doesnt even know how the driver is interconected at api level (i have my doubts if that guy really have used the OSS driver btw), well mate you win one hell of a flame for trolling.
                And the correct response is to resort to the same behavior as Gordboy?

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                to answer your post no gordboy didnt post anything valuable not a point nor an idea nor a contribution, and his way of write just made it worse.
                at the end this is not a forum made for end users, this forum is made to techies that want to share ideas or experiences in this topics, ofc any user can come and ask question to solve doubts or problems. but when you post up to certain language you need to have the minimal technical background to do it, this is not facebook or myspace, you know.
                I also don't agree with your assertion as to who this forum this designed for but of course in the end this is for Michael to decide.

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                so ok he wanted to know why the release taked so long, well for a guy who claim who is an experienced dev since 30 years ago, he could read the git commit logs, check bugzilla (and realize there was a couple of bug pending) even maybe download the source to check maybe what actually need the driver to work (dependencies) and even lol check the bugzilla of those dependcies to at minimal see if there is a urgent fix or something that could hold the release and then ask properly informed, dont you think that is the rigth thing to do?.
                I'm not arguing this point. You have my posts mixed up with someone else's perhaps?

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                now if he is just lying and he is not a dev, well ok like many ppl, you can ask as a civilized homo sapien, that someone explain him this or that, so he can properly understand and even maybe post a contribution or an idea that could eventually help to release the driver faster, dont you think that is the rigth thing to do?.
                Perhaps you skipped over some parts of my posts?

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                so can you explain to me, why having so much information, previous post, the code it self, and god knows how many civilized way to actually make that simple question in a decent fashion, we need to tolerate him especially since his post or contribution are basically around 0?. in fact all he post is that kind post all over around, some more insultive sometimes even more insulting and the only common factor in those post is that he dont have the minimal clue of what is he talking about, and made it a fact he never bother in find previous or important info before post.
                And we need to tolerate others that post in the same manner as him?

                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                note:
                bugzilla= bugzilla/mailing lists, wikis, etc. im just lazy to write them all 1 by 1
                I get the feeling you are applying your own meaning to my posts that doesn't follow the spirit of what I'm saying.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                  And we need to tolerate others that post in the same manner as him?
                  Actually pretty openly aggressive interaction on this site seems to be allowed assuming the participants actually know their stuff. Take a look at the merging drivers back into X.org thread and talk between libv and airlied, for example.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by nanonyme View Post
                    Actually pretty openly aggressive interaction on this site seems to be allowed assuming the participants actually know their stuff. Take a look at the merging drivers back into X.org thread and talk between libv and airlied, for example.
                    Indeed and is partly why I'm surprised at the reaction to Gordboy's aggressive style as robust discussion has been had here previously. As to whether being aggressive or not is conditional on whether one knows their stuff or not, from his perspective as a consumer of the driver, he seemed to feel that he himself doesn't necessarily need to know the minutia of why the driver isn't in the state he wants, only whether the driver either is or isn't in the state he wants. He seemed to be putting it to the driver team that he felt they weren't up to the job and in further posts brought up the option of he himself taking on the responsibility of it if various prerequisites were fulfilled. I can't vouch for his ability to take over the responsibility or whether it's even possible in any way (I assumed there was no way this would ever happen as I'm sure everyone else did as well)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      This is a good discussion but I think it's missing the point. It seemed to me that gordboy was not banned specifically for his attitude or aggressive posting, but rather for ignoring previous warnings, both private and in now-closed threads. Other users receiving similar warnings did back down (although they were replaced by other users); gordboy did not.

                      The other question for me is how "robust" the discussion actually was - gordboy had asked about the long delay between releases late last year, had been told that the next driver would come out some time after the 2.6.33 or 2.6.34 kernel locked down (whichever took KMS out of staging for radeon-supported GPUs), and seemed fine with that. The latest round of "why aren't you releasing the driver" posts only appeared *after* the first 6.13 RC was published and the release process had started - that's what made other posters question the validity of gordboy's complaints and threats.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20846

                        For the record, gordboy's posts there were as courteous and well-reasoned as any on the forum.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          I do *so* much miss being able to edit

                          One common thread I see between gordboy and -fan is that both talk about major releases as "the next stable release", while in fact major releases (eg 6.13) normally deliver new functionality while the minor releases (eg 6.12.4) deliver bug fixes and improved stability.

                          The development and test focus with major releases is more on making the new functionality work well while breaking as little as possible in the existing functionality.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                            This is a good discussion but I think it's missing the point. It seemed to me that gordboy was not banned specifically for his attitude or aggressive posting, but rather for ignoring previous warnings, both private and in now-closed threads. Other users receiving similar warnings did back down (although they were replaced by other users); gordboy did not.
                            I think that if the conversation was to not be continued then the right thing would've been to close the thread.

                            Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                            The other question for me is how "robust" the discussion actually was - gordboy had asked about the long delay between releases late last year, had been told that the next driver would come out some time after the 2.6.33 or 2.6.34 kernel locked down (whichever took KMS out of staging for radeon-supported GPUs), and seemed fine with that. The latest round of "why aren't you releasing the driver" posts only appeared *after* the first 6.13 RC was published and the release process had started - that's what made other posters question the validity of gordboy's complaints and threats.
                            I myself question the validity of his main point as well but I don't question his right to make them in the light of what else gets posted by others. While I wish for the drivers to be at their most awesome right now, they're not quite there yet and unless I'm prepared to muck in with code myself I'll personally keep things in the realm of "do I buy nVidia or AMD?" and simply vote with my wallet and the wallets of those that I advise.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                              I do *so* much miss being able to edit

                              One common thread I see between gordboy and -fan is that both talk about major releases as "the next stable release", while in fact major releases (eg 6.13) normally deliver new functionality while the minor releases (eg 6.12.4) deliver bug fixes and improved stability.

                              The development and test focus with major releases is more on making the new functionality work well while breaking as little as possible in the existing functionality.
                              Of course they could be both the same individual but at this stage I myself see no real value in that topic. I get the feeling some would like Gordboy-Fan to disappear as well though.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                                I think that if the conversation was to not be continued then the right thing would've been to close the thread.
                                That's what happened last time, but I don't think there was any desire to stop discussion of the topic, just keep the tone of discussion more reasonable :

                                http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showt...423#post117423

                                The question is how you maintain a semblance of control without censoring the actual discussion. The usual practice (whether it be a schoolyard fight, a mob in the street or a forum thread gone bad) is to first warn the group, then if that doesn't work figure out "who started it" and either get them to back off a bit or take them out of the picture until things cool down.

                                Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                                I myself question the validity of his main point as well but I don't question his right to make them in the light of what else gets posted by others. While I wish for the drivers to be at their most awesome right now, they're not quite there yet and unless I'm prepared to muck in with code myself I'll personally keep things in the realm of "do I buy nVidia or AMD?" and simply vote with my wallet and the wallets of those that I advise.
                                I agree. I'm no fan of mob behaviour either - one definition of a mob is a bunch of people saying "but *I* only hit him once..." when the aggregate response is just as bad as what the initiator did.

                                The problem here, I think, was that in the last few threads gordboy wasn't really making points, just jumping to the conclusion that the developers were all incompetent and/or malicious without any supporting arguments. I think we all encourage criticism just as much as praise but I didn't really see much this time other than personal attacks both in the threads and via PMs.

                                Originally posted by mugginz View Post
                                Of course they could be both the same individual but at this stage I myself see no real value in that topic. I get the feeling some would like Gordboy-Fan to disappear as well though.
                                I don't really care about who's who either - I was trying to say that the one potentially valid complaint (lack of a "stable release") was probably missing the point anyways, since the major releases are not the same as stable releases anyways.

                                In the end the discussion seemed to boil down to one specific bug fix which gordboy wanted in the minor releases but which agd5f felt was too invasive/risky to be a good candidate for a minor. Fair point, but I don't think anything like that could ever justify even the initial posts we have seen.

                                Comment

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