Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

More Broken Promises and Prevarication

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by gordboy View Post
    Of course, if the stuff is out there and works, then there could be no possible excuse to delay release. So what is it to be ?

    a) the code is not ready yet, it will be released when it is ready.

    b) the code is ready and the devs are refusing to release it.

    all the indications are b) as far as I can see.
    Why would you think (b) ? If you've been programming for 30 years then you have a good understanding of how the release process works - a release candidate is generated, testing is performed on that RC (in the open source world this testing is mostly done by the user community), feedback is received and used to decide whether another RC is required or whether the latest RC can be deemed "final".

    The devs make a determination based on feedback received from user testing - are you saying that you feel their criteria for declaring an RC as "final" are too stringent, or is your unhappiness caused more by the decision to make 6.13 "the KMS release" rather than providing an interim release for UMS users ?

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by gordboy View Post
      Here's the deal, apart from anything else, I maintain lots of machines. And that means using ordinary packages, using stuff from git is simply not feasible. And frankly, the PPA is a joke.

      So I am not "refusing to use code ...". It is completely the other way around. The devs are refusing to release stuff. This situation would not be tolerated anywhere else.

      Of course, if the stuff is out there and works, then there could be no possible excuse to delay release. So what is it to be ?

      a) the code is not ready yet, it will be released when it is ready.

      b) the code is ready and the devs are refusing to release it.

      all the indications are b) as far as I can see. Which makes the "Release Candidate" totally inexplicable. People will draw their own conclusions about the timing of the latest RC.

      I have another observation to make about some of the elitist crap I have read here. Thanks for all the advice guys, but I really don't need any help from a bunch of lameheads who cannot even conduct a simple argument without shooting themselves in the foot.

      I have been a programmer for over 30 years, and I really don't need any advice from n00bs who imagine that gentoo/arch are the zenith of linux. People who hold those views are rank amateurs, and they themselves are very often the only ones who cannot plainly see it.

      Can I make a suggestion ? OK, good. If you feel compelled to add your twopence to this thread, please ensure you know what you are talking about. And if you are not directly involved in development, please refrain from the gratuitous insults. I'm quite sure the devs don't need their image tarnished any further.

      Oh and one more thing guys :

      Could you tell me when the promised 6.13 ddx will be released ?
      You know why I called you an idiot, you'd think with "30 years" of programming experience you'd learn to read.

      a) the MIT license we release code under
      b) what promise where? [citation needed].

      You clearly have expectations we aren't meeting, so I ask you not to bother using our code if it isn't up to your standards. Please continue to run Windows ME or whatever OS is suitable for someone of your clearly superior knowledge.

      If you expected not shipping release candidates and releasing the 6.13 final code 2-3 weeks ago, then maybe you could have helped fixing/closing bugs in the bug tracker. So far one major R600 AGP bug has been fixed during the RC cycle, and we'd like to make sure no other major ones are lurking. It's called a release process, but I'm sure with your "30 years" you'd understand that, though maybe if you have this much frustration you could either (a) help out (b) gtfo.

      Dave.

      Comment


      • #33
        You guys are being trolled. Hard.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by bridgman View Post
          Why would you think (b) ? If you've been programming for 30 years then you have a good understanding of how the release process works - a release candidate is generated, testing is performed on that RC (in the open source world this testing is mostly done by the user community), feedback is received and used to decide whether another RC is required or whether the latest RC can be deemed "final".

          The devs make a determination based on feedback received from user testing - are you saying that you feel their criteria for declaring an RC as "final" are too stringent, or is your unhappiness caused more by the decision to make 6.13 "the KMS release" rather than providing an interim release for UMS users ?
          I was replying to pingufunkybeat, who clearly thinks that the code is ready, but that I am too lazy to download it. So are you categorically assuring me that pingufunkybeat is dead wrong ? I hope you can see my problem with his contribution.

          And yes you are right, I have a very good idea about release processes. There is no standard "release process" tho, it is different for each case. For example, vim has no release candidates as such. In fact, RCs are the exception, not the rule.

          Now as to the question of 6.13 being the KMS release, yes I am extremely unhappy about that. There are fixes in the main git tree that have been there for months and have never made it to release. And it is not like other people haven't been asking the same question.

          Are we going to have to wait until the r1200 chip is released in 2015 before we get another release ? Or maybe we have to wait until the 3.0.22 kernel when the Complete Raster Apotheosis Paradigm (CRAP) finally gets kernel support ?

          I'll hold off asking my question here again, as I am just about to answer Dave's rather amusing flock of canards.

          Comment


          • #35
            I've been looking at some of your past posts on this forum, please dont object, I was simply interested in learning more about why you feel the way you do....

            From what I can see that a good portion of your posts here have been thankful and even cheerful one might say. For all I can see youve been a valuable member of this community, what I cant understand though is the last 10 or so posts you've made. Extremely harsh man.

            I think you've said some things that simply arent true, and others that may very well be true but blown way out of proportion.

            Take some advice man, take a deep breath and relax. Take a break from computers for 2 weeks. Take your wife up to the family cabin. Unwind for a little while. Maybe tonight have a few beers, start a fire in the back pit, and crank the music for a while. Then when you come back in 2 weeks you'll see that the things you've been stressing over are A: not as big a deal as you thought they were when you were stressed out or B: solved.

            Just some friendly advice from somebody who understands.

            Comment


            • #36
              The Cavalcade of Dullards

              Originally posted by airlied View Post
              You know why I called you an idiot, you'd think with "30 years" of programming experience you'd learn to read.

              a) the MIT license we release code under
              b) what promise where? [citation needed].

              You clearly have expectations we aren't meeting, so I ask you not to bother using our code if it isn't up to your standards. Please continue to run Windows ME or whatever OS is suitable for someone of your clearly superior knowledge.

              If you expected not shipping release candidates and releasing the 6.13 final code 2-3 weeks ago, then maybe you could have helped fixing/closing bugs in the bug tracker. So far one major R600 AGP bug has been fixed during the RC cycle, and we'd like to make sure no other major ones are lurking. It's called a release process, but I'm sure with your "30 years" you'd understand that, though maybe if you have this much frustration you could either (a) help out (b) gtfo.

              Dave.
              Dearest Dave, thank you for taking the time to regale me with your splendid grasp of subtle, nuanced imprecation.

              So reduced to thinly-veiled ad hominem now, eh ? Pity, I was looking forward to taking you on, point by point. But since you haven't actually made any points, it seems we will have to wait until another acolyte bounds to your rescue. But actually, they are not faring any better ....

              Your idea of a "universal release process" that you are diligently following, doesn't hold any water. And this, I am afraid, is the most damning thing you have written. Nobody asked you to follow the arcane, inexplicable path you are currently following. And to dignify it with the weasel-words "release process" just shows how muddle-headed you truly are.

              Elsewhere on this forum and website the terms "long overdue" and "promised" have been used repeatedly. And the IRC channel on freenode has repeatedly assured people for several months now that release is "imminent". Perhaps you ought to consult with other people before making any further gaffes.

              Are you suggesting that I should read the MIT license, to discover why you have taken so long to move exactly zero nanometres forward ? Do me a favour, please try to make this a fair fight. I am single-handedly demolishing you and your little band of True Believers.

              The onus is not on me to provide *anything*. The onus is on YOU to tell the community why you have made such a pig's ear of it. You have been given a position of trust, which you have clearly abused.

              And now the $64,000 question :

              When will the promised radeon 6.13 ddx driver be released ?

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by duby229 View Post
                I've been looking at some of your past posts on this forum, please dont object, I was simply interested in learning more about why you feel the way you do....

                From what I can see that a good portion of your posts here have been thankful and even cheerful one might say. For all I can see youve been a valuable member of this community, what I cant understand though is the last 10 or so posts you've made. Extremely harsh man.

                I think you've said some things that simply arent true, and others that may very well be true but blown way out of proportion.

                Take some advice man, take a deep breath and relax. Take a break from computers for 2 weeks. Take your wife up to the family cabin. Unwind for a little while. Maybe tonight have a few beers, start a fire in the back pit, and crank the music for a while. Then when you come back in 2 weeks you'll see that the things you've been stressing over are A: not as big a deal as you thought they were when you were stressed out or B: solved.

                Just some friendly advice from somebody who understands.
                Thanks, but what you are seeing here is righteous indignation, and not a stress-related malady. You sound a bit like the kind of guy who would stand by and watch an old lady be mugged at a bus stop for fear of giving offence by intervening ... jkn

                The reason is very simple. I am sick of being lied to by people that are frankly making linux look like a joke. And I am going to keep on answering the posts here until I get an answer to my question.

                I won't insult your intelligence by asking it again

                Comment


                • #38
                  I was replying to pingufunkybeat, who clearly thinks that the code is ready, but that I am too lazy to download it.
                  Nope, I said that the code is there and that it works. I didn't say it was "ready", which is something the devs have to decide. And apparently, due to some showstoppers, they decided it wasn't ready for a release.

                  This doesn't change the fact that you are, indeed, too lazy to download it.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    my questions to you. did you pay to have the driver released by a certain date?

                    failing that, were you granted a contract that spelled out the time frame which the driver would be delivered to you?

                    failing that, do you have some sort of legal agreement without a formal contract that gave reasonable assurance of a delivery date?

                    well without any of that, the release date is none of your business.

                    Originally posted by gordboy View Post
                    Here's the deal, apart from anything else, I maintain lots of machines. And that means using ordinary packages, using stuff from git is simply not feasible. And frankly, the PPA is a joke.

                    So I am not "refusing to use code ...". It is completely the other way around. The devs are refusing to release stuff. This situation would not be tolerated anywhere else.

                    Of course, if the stuff is out there and works, then there could be no possible excuse to delay release. So what is it to be ?

                    a) the code is not ready yet, it will be released when it is ready.

                    b) the code is ready and the devs are refusing to release it.

                    all the indications are b) as far as I can see. Which makes the "Release Candidate" totally inexplicable. People will draw their own conclusions about the timing of the latest RC.

                    I have another observation to make about some of the elitist crap I have read here. Thanks for all the advice guys, but I really don't need any help from a bunch of lameheads who cannot even conduct a simple argument without shooting themselves in the foot.

                    I have been a programmer for over 30 years, and I really don't need any advice from n00bs who imagine that gentoo/arch are the zenith of linux. People who hold those views are rank amateurs, and they themselves are very often the only ones who cannot plainly see it.

                    Can I make a suggestion ? OK, good. If you feel compelled to add your twopence to this thread, please ensure you know what you are talking about. And if you are not directly involved in development, please refrain from the gratuitous insults. I'm quite sure the devs don't need their image tarnished any further.

                    Oh and one more thing guys :

                    Could you tell me when the promised 6.13 ddx will be released ?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by gordboy View Post
                      Elsewhere on this forum and website the terms "long overdue" and "promised" have been used repeatedly. And the IRC channel on freenode has repeatedly assured people for several months now that release is "imminent".
                      I guess this may be the disconnect. I try to read through the IRC logs every day and don't remember ever seeing discussion of an imminent release, other than once the corresponding code was ready to go in the kernel (ie 2.6.33 final).

                      I don't remember seeing any discussion of promises or long overdue releases on Phoronix either (other than Michael's article about 6.13RC2, which I presumed came from this discussion) but I don't have time to read every post here and could easily have missed something.

                      Maybe there was a general expectation that KMS would move into the mainstream more quickly than it did ?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                        Nope, I said that the code is there and that it works. I didn't say it was "ready", which is something the devs have to decide. And apparently, due to some showstoppers, they decided it wasn't ready for a release.

                        This doesn't change the fact that you are, indeed, too lazy to download it.
                        But pingufunkybeat, I have downloaded and compiled the git source. And not just once. Any fool with an hour to spare can do that.

                        And I hate to say this, but your use of the word "apparently" shows what a dolt you truly are. People have been asking the same question for months.

                        Could you please tell me which "showstoppers" are holding up the "current" "release" ?

                        Actually don't bother answering, there are people here with double figure IQs that I am afraid take priority over you.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          For what it's worth, I believe the decision not to insert a major UMS release between 6.12 and 6.13 was correct, since most of the available test coverage had already moved to KMS and so UMS test coverage was already extremely thin. The transition to KMS required some fairly invasive changes to the UMS stack (the "radeon-rewrite" work in mid-2009 which affected Mesa, libdrm and the ddx) in order to let a single copy of the stack operate in both UMS/DRI1 and KMS/GEM/TTM/DRI2 environments during the overlap period, and that introduced a lot of risk.

                          I believe the intent was to introduce as few other risks as possible during the radeon-rewrite transition, which is why distros were guided towards the bug-fix releases rather than the work-in-process 6.13 code. Even following the lowest risk route there was still some fallout on less-tested GPUs during the fall 2009 distro releases (eg R200 family on Ubuntu 9.10) and it seems to me that the inclusion of higher risk changes would most likely have made things worse.

                          It's possible that a major release could have been pushed out during the fall of 2009 without major blowups, but based on the magnitude of change and the available testing resources it seems pretty unlikely. That's all guesswork of course, but I *think* the right decisions were made.

                          Obviously if promises were made during the year about imminent major releases then something was wrong, but I honestly don't remember seeing or hearing any such message from the development community.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Another One Bites The Dust

                            Originally posted by seeker010 View Post
                            my questions to you. did you pay to have the driver released by a certain date?

                            failing that, were you granted a contract that spelled out the time frame which the driver would be delivered to you?

                            failing that, do you have some sort of legal agreement without a formal contract that gave reasonable assurance of a delivery date?

                            well without any of that, the release date is none of your business.
                            Actually, Dear Child, the release date is *everyones'* business. Everyone who has a stake in maintaining linux, that is. But don't worry, it's not your fault that you don't know this : ignorance is not a crime.

                            But I must commend your resourcefulness in at least attempting a watertight refutation, even if it was ultimately as bereft of substance as most of the rest of the rubbish in this thread.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              I think we all agree that it's good for everyone to understand release plans, whether they be developers, distro packagers, or users. That said, all of the evidence I have been able to find still points to a consistent message from the developers over the last year, that the next major release would be for KMS after 2.6.33, eg :

                              http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20846

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by gordboy
                                Could you please tell me which "showstoppers" are holding up the "current" "release" ?
                                Oh, but airlied wrote in this very thread that " So far one major R600 AGP bug has been fixed during the RC cycle, and we'd like to make sure no other major ones are lurking."

                                Apparently, that one. Surely, a programmer with 30 years of experience knows how to read? It's not high-level literature or something. It's not even a git changelog.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X