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  • #31
    most of the other video sites out there don't allow video recordings of an hour in length or file sizes greater than 1GB or have a decent Flash Player.
    (snipped)
    Most of our video files are 3~4GB in size and once compressing them the video quality is shot.
    If it was possible for you to upload one of the files just once, I'd like to have a shot at it.

    Using x264 (two passes, high profile 4.1, and the right cropping), and considering the talks would be 40min (Luc's talk IIRC) to 60 min, it should be possible to get better than Youtube HD-like quality for 300-500Mo. Especially if the video quality is good to start with. If it's about allowing people to download them, that would probably be the wisest choice (IIRC you can get file hosting for free below 500Mo/file, maybe up to 1Go/file). Eventually, I could send you back the mencoder script that works, and provided you've got something better than an Atom it should be faster than uploading it to Youtube.

    For streaming inside the article, there's Youtube and (better) Dailymotion. However, most of your readers would be using an x64 arch for their OS, since that's what PTS use instead of i386. Since 64 bits Flash plugin is a pain in the neck, and 32 bit through ndiswrapper is the same, eventually the use of the <video> html tag + Theora would be the only streaming solution that would work without having to install an i386 version in order for your readers to watch video on Phoronix.

    Dailymotion offers <video> + Theora IIRC, and it works ok in Firefox. It's only for some videos, but if they offer you the choice at upload time, you'd get embedded video with Theora and Flash for those few users stuck with IE6 on Windows.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by bugmenot View Post
      Does it support mp3 natively? Last I checked, Windows required either an mp3 codec or an application with a built-in mp3 decoder to be installed in order to play mp3s.
      Native mp3 playback has been present Windows Media Player 7 without having to download a codec. So since Windows XP playback has been OOB.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by yotambien View Post
        I mean the particular case of Phoronix uploading some audio files from time to time in a format that everybody can play, not the particular case of this conference. We obviously have a different set of priorities and sensibilities, but that's OK.
        It's not ok since is not the first time he uses a proprietary format while there are free solutions. We have even voted (we, his customers) to change his policy but he neglects us. And now, without rudeness we ask him again to stop disatisfying his customers since he can satisfy them pretty easily with a format that everybody can play.

        I was going to say "because you live in Greece" (an assumption), but it is more correct to say because you live in planet Earth.
        Hell I'm not so sure that I can use proprietary formats in Greece and you are? After all I'm talking in general. How do you know that a guy in Indonesia can legally, or one in Sri Lanka etc...
        By using free software you satisfy everyone without hassle and that's what matters.

        If you use a crippled distro, that is your decision and your problem.
        And if someone doesn't want to use a crippled os without vorbis installed it's his problem. Your point?

        But that's flawed. Contrary to throwing rubbish in the street or killing a bear, listening to an mp3 file doesn't have any negative consequences to others.
        It does, since if I don't have problems to use patented software in sites like this one, then I have no reason to use no patented software at all, while on the contrrary patented software has a lot of negative consequences to others.


        That was exactly my point, it works both ways. But Bugmenot has already debunked my assumption that Windows has mp3 support out of the box, so nevermind this.
        So, they have mp3 out of the box and I have to install mp3 decoder pretty easily, but it's a patented format and that's raises some problems.
        I have vorbis out of the box and they have to install vorbis pretty easily, but it's a free format and thus raises zero problems.
        Free software advocates are much more common than proprietary advocates in this site.
        Who wins? If you believe that the right is with the proprietary advocates then I can see no reason to not using wma instead of mp3. Since it plays out of the box in windows and I can have install in my Linux machine as well.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Apopas
          And if someone doesn't want to use a crippled os without vorbis installed it's his problem. Your point?
          I mean "if someone wants to use a crippled os without vorbis installed it's his problem. Your point?"

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Apopas View Post
            Originally posted by yotambien
            I mean the particular case of Phoronix uploading some audio files from time to time in a format that everybody can play, not the particular case of this conference. We obviously have a different set of priorities and sensibilities, but that's OK.
            It's not ok since is not the first time he uses a proprietary format while there are free solutions. We have even voted (we, his customers) to change his policy but he neglects us.
            Read my sentence again, I said that it's OK having different priorities and sensibilities. Obviously for me it's OK to play an mp3 file whereas you seem to have some problems about it.

            Originally posted by Apopas
            And now, without rudeness we ask him again to stop disatisfying his customers since he can satisfy them pretty easily with a format that everybody can play.
            Like mp3?

            Originally posted by Apopas
            Hell I'm not so sure that I can use proprietary formats in Greece and you are? After all I'm talking in general. How do you know that a guy in Indonesia can legally, or one in Sri Lanka etc...
            By using free software you satisfy everyone without hassle and that's what matters.
            Yes, I'm sure you can play mp3 files in Greece, although I guess you have to do your homework. I don't know whether in $EXOTIC_LOCATION they have laws against mp3 files, in the same way that I don't know whether they have them against Vorbis.

            Originally posted by Apopas
            And if someone doesn't want to use a crippled os without vorbis installed it's his problem. Your point?
            Well, apparently the same as yours, you tell me what you were trying to say.

            Originally posted by Apopas
            Originally posted by yotambien
            But that's flawed. Contrary to throwing rubbish in the street or killing a bear, listening to an mp3 file doesn't have any negative consequences to others.
            It does, since if I don't have problems to use patented software in sites like this one, then I have no reason to use no patented software at all, while on the contrrary patented software has a lot of negative consequences to others.
            I don't understand this bit. In which way me listening to an mp3 file affects you? Furthermore, in which way you playing an mp3 file affects you?

            Originally posted by Apopas
            So, they have mp3 out of the box and I have to install mp3 decoder pretty easily, but it's a patented format and that's raises some problems. I have vorbis out of the box and they have to install vorbis pretty easily, but it's a free format and thus raises zero problems.
            Perhaps you want to spell out those problems you keep mentioning, so we can assess what are the caveats of Phoronix using this codec and reach a sane conclusion. I suspect that you would have an easier ride if you stuck to the arguably technical advantages of Vorbis rather than to some ethereal 'problems' associated with mp3 playback.

            Comment


            • #36
              yotambien,

              The problem is not that there are laws specifically against mp3, the problem is that there are several companies that hold patents related to mp3 decoding and encoding.[1]

              Because these companies hold the patents, they can decide whether or not to charge license fees for their use. That means that both decoders and encoders--both hardware and software--could potentially be affected. Right now (as far as I know) these companies are not being aggressive in regard to pursuing royalties from the free software implementations of their decoder but it means nothing and is still not safe legal ground upon which to stand. You claim that playing mp3 files is not a problem. Why do you suppose Ubuntu does not install an mp3 decoder by default? Or Fedora? Do you think that they are trying to inconvenience users? Or do you think the gstreamer plugin is so large that they are unable to fit it on their installation media? Or do you think that they don't feel that anybody uses mp3 files anymore? No, the answer is very clear. They are concerned that they are not legally allowed to distribute an mp3 codec in all of the countries in which their software is used.

              Vorbis does not have these problems. Anyone in any country can download it, encode files, play files, make a player, sell the player, etc. This is a HUGE benefit that everyone (including the Phoronix team and yourself) needs to understand.

              To summarize:

              Code:
                                                          Ogg Vorbis   MP3
                   Patent-free and always legal to play:   yes          no
                                         Cross-platform:   yes          yes
                                       Gapless encoding:   yes          no
                               Flexible metadata format:   yes          no
              Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Konqueror support:   yes          no
                        Installed by default on distros:   yes          no[2]
                        Installed by default on Windows:   no           yes[3]
                    Supported by portable media players:   yes, some    yes
              Sure mp3 has momentum going for it but I fail to see a solid reason not to use Ogg Vorbis on Phoronix (and every other website for that matter). If Michael wants to offer mp3 in addition to Ogg Vorbis that is also an option but to not offer Ogg Vorbis on a website that caters to Linux users seems a tad bit ridiculous.

              [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3#Lic..._patent_issues
              [2] I am generalizing among desktop-oriented distros. Since there are hundreds of them some exceptions may exist.
              [3] http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/u...october01.mspx

              Comment


              • #37
                i think i can help a bit here, i think that his point is not based of "i like this codec and not the other one" is more a practical issue.

                aka

                MP3:
                * licensed and therefore someone have to pay for legal use of the codec, could be you or the distributor of the content, you may say no one have come to me asking money to be able to listen mp3 yet but that is just cuz you dont have enough to worth the prosecute but eventually they could.
                * lower quality
                * very problematic in linux unless you buy the codec from the guys of theora and ogg but they dont support xine/ffmpeg/mplayer/etc .(problematic al legal lvl not tech lvl cuz community hacked it very good )

                Ogg/vorbis:
                * OpenSource and royalty free, so free to use forever and 0 payments for the user or the distribuitor(you can always donate to the proyect if you wish ofc but you arent forced in any way)
                * better audio quality at same bitrate (my ears feel it that way)
                * 100% supported in any OS, especially unix like oses
                * ogg/vorbis have bindings for almost any computer language on earth, lol even PHP have a really complete api to work with ogg/vorbis files
                * as my experience tell me ogg/vorbis is a lot less painful to handle tags and song info than mp3.
                * and the last one important ogg/vorbis play very nice with video too using theora and ogg container (all this tech are from the same group so no surprise here).

                so as you can see ogg/vorbis/theora are really nice solutions technically speaking and set us free from any legal mess that can bring h264/mp3 in the future. the good thing about free software is that i dont have to convince you, you can have it rigth now and test it all you want

                for resources and sources come here
                http://www.xiph.org/
                and to try it well im pretty sure they come by default in your distro so google a bit and transcode some mp3 files and make the comparison

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                  Read my sentence again, I said that it's OK having different priorities and sensibilities. Obviously for me it's OK to play an mp3 file whereas you seem to have some problems about it.
                  EXACTLY! Me and a lot of of others have problem to use patented formats. With vorbis everyone is fine.

                  Like mp3?
                  Now we speak or we cough?

                  Yes, I'm sure you can play mp3 files in Greece, although I guess you have to do your homework. I don't know whether in $EXOTIC_LOCATION they have laws against mp3 files, in the same way that I don't know whether they have them against Vorbis.
                  How are you so sure about Greece? So me your sources.
                  Problems against free software but not against patentent one? Yeah, very logical.

                  Well, apparently the same as yours, you tell me what you were trying to say.
                  I don't understand this bit. In which way me listening to an mp3 file affects you? Furthermore, in which way you playing an mp3 file affects you?
                  So you pretent here that you don't understand how software patents affects people and still you expect we can have a quality conversation.
                  The matter is not if you decide to listen a specific mp3 file or if you have your whole music collection in wma. The matter is that in a forum which supports Linux, free software should be the first option.
                  People here have problems with mp3s but noone with vorbis and since vorbis is not inferior, the only solution is to use vorbis.

                  Perhaps you want to spell out those problems you keep mentioning, so we can assess what are the caveats of Phoronix using this codec and reach a sane conclusion. I suspect that you would have an easier ride if you stuck to the arguably technical advantages of Vorbis rather than to some ethereal 'problems' associated with mp3 playback.
                  You spoke first about the possible problems a windows user could have while trying to access the file from his job. Not me. If you find them ethereal, then don't mention them at all.
                  Look yotambien. It's obvious that free software means nothing to you. That's your right unfortunately. But to try to demote it, especially in a forum like this is unacceptable. This "ethereal" things born Linux and free software in general. Even if you are against it, at least here show some respect.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    apopas you are rigth but i dont think this dude is being unrespectful with linux or free software. unlike us wich have suffered from first hand how bad can be a patented codec or format from first hand (gif anyone?) most users are just naive about what the software their are using do or not.( hey microsoft live for many years cuz of that "improved security" ring any bell or any office release "now you can work online lol" ).

                    i think yotambien doubts are that no one actually told him why is bad, no one have go to his home and ask money to keep listen his mp3 files. so for yotambien mp3 is a free "thingie" file for music.

                    so yotambien is not like mp3 is the devil, im sure it have its merits, dont get me wrong the codec for any normal user is just fine, i agree with you, but the issue here is the big sharks behind the codec that charge one freak hell of money for use it. for example your mp3 player need a license to play mp3 files, you just dont see it cuz the company pay it for you but it affects you cuz that license is included in the price. i agree here too that develop cost money and they have the rigth to charge something. but like americans do they just bastardize the process and first give it at low price to make it an standard and now few years later they are asking one heck lot of money to let you use their codec cuz is the "standard". the second issue here is the american polite way to monopolize the software, so for example if microsoft feel linux is threatening their market they can just call the mp3 company and start prosecute any mp3 player project members for unauthorized use of their codec and say !ohh linux sux that os cant even play the "standard" mp3 file! or another example let say diamond dont want certain company products to compete with theirs and call the mp3 company to raise the license fee to the sky so the competence cant acquire a license so they can keep the market share and so on and on and on.

                    so our issue here more that wich codec is better is to avoid the risk that phoronix or any other site can get caught in a legal prosecution for use a codec owned for a very dirt playing people when you have a perfectly safe and optimal codec to use instead. is just that

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Uh, lots of things.

                      I acknowledge all that, guys. The difference is that we interpret the data in different ways. Whereas you take into the equation the hypothetical scenario in which the patent holders would demand royalties from everyone, I don't--or at least only in a measure proportional to the actual risks. Why? Because it's extremely unlikely that users will ever be asked to directly pay anything. That would be absolutely suicidal, and actually would be a good thing if they did, generating an awful lot of backslash and terrible publicity for the patent holders. Why do you think H264 is free for non-commercial use? Also, unless Satan got elected in whatever country you happen to live, the payment of the royalties would never be retroactive, so you could always change codecs before the doom day. It's not like anybody "is going to get caught" out of the blue.

                      I think part of the issue is also that you are analysing this in very general terms, "patents are inherently bad so we don't want mp3s", instead of focusing on this case. This particular case is that of mp3 files, which are ubiquitous and as of today their use has zero negative consequences for the end users. It's not that the mp3 patent holders have not been very aggressive in collecting royalties from open source projects: they have done nothing at all about it. It is in their best interest that everybody have access to their format so they can charge whoever makes money from it. I'm not one of those making money out of mp3, you are not either, the vast majority of the world population, including the developers of OSS mp3 implementations aren't either. And if you happen to be a commercial entity expecting to generate revenue from a project containing compressed audio, and you plan to do so in certain parts of the world, you would be an idiot not using Vorbis (as the people from the examples given in the Wikipedia Vorbis article did).

                      One of the biggest assests of a codec is public spread. Mp3, technically slightly inferior to Vorbis, has just got that. Given the opportunity to buy online music in mp3 or Vorbis, at equal quality levels, I would surely choose mp3 and forget about transcoding anything for my portable devices or being a pain with my WindowsMediaPlayer-loving friends. For me, the marginal technological superiority of Vorbis doesn't offset the benefits of using the de facto standard for music compression in terms of portability.

                      This battle has been lost long ago and it makes little sense to keep it alive. The mp3 decoding patents expire in 2011-2012, and the encoding ones no later than 2017. It seems to me that you are fighting a non-issue. In any case, if your analisis of the situation tells you not to use mp3 audio, that's perfectly fine, but I wonder how many more stuff you should stop using right now if you were consequent with your own views regarding patent threats. Linux, perhaps?

                      A bit of perspective now. Let me remind you again that this started when I pointed out that you were overreacting regarding the file uploaded by Phoronix. I wasn't even telling you that your were wrong. Above I gave the reasons why I think your reaction was unjustified given the practical considerations involved with mp3 playback. This is not me defending patents or proprietary formats in general, neither mocking OSS, mocking you nor anything like that. If the file format was Vorbis in the first place and a crowd of people started to bitch about it, lecturing others about the existence of this cool mp3 format that everybody can play, I would have posted something very similar.

                      ...

                      Now, Apopas, your post is rather content-free and at times provocative. You haven't even tried to follow the discussion; and instead you keep repeating that you have 'problems' with mp3s; stating as a dogma that Phoronix must use Vorbis. If you don't say what those 'problems' are, as others did, I will have a hard time discussing anything, don't you think?

                      But I take issue with your last bit. Yes, fortunately it is my right to think whatever I want to think and express it in whatever public forum I feel like. For somebody who depicts himself as a supporter of freedom, you seem to quickly regret that I have this right and I actually (gasp!) may make use of it.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        By trying to prove that by using mp3 you are not in danger to pay and speaking about royalties and such, you prove that you don't understand that patents affects far more important things than just money yotambien.

                        Anyway, to conclude my dogma...
                        if Michael had decided to use vorbis instead of mp3 at first place, then this quarrel wouldn't have take place at all. That's a viable reason, at least, to use vorbis.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Well, my reasoning was a bit more articulated than that; but yes, I focused on the most practical consequences of mp3 playback--don't lose sight of what was being discussed, which wasn't patents in general. Now, you seem like having a good argument there, but again you are not sharing it. I hope you realise that if you don't exchange your views this is rather pointless.

                          And heh, yes, you could threat Phoronix with having endless arguments in the forum about patents to coerce Michael to use Vorbis. He is perfectly aware of the bitching, as it transpires from the Ubuntu One Music Store story...which linked to this thread...and now I'm going to create a singularity (or two) by LINKING BACK TO IT!.

                          Seriously now, what were the reasons originally given for not pleasing you? That's the core issue. You mentioned a vote or something, which I must have completely missed. As I said, I too would expect a more "OSS friendly" format, knowing what a lot of people over here think; surely there must be a reason for the decision, if only perhaps a trivial one.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            I will add my voice to the calls to provide files only in Free multimedia formats like Vorbis or Theora.

                            While it is true that end users are unlikely to be in peril for using unlicensed codecs, the same cannot be said for businesses. And the more ubiquitous non-free formats become, the harder it will be for businesses to compete using only Free formats in their products.

                            For example, my company maintains a GNU/Linux distro (Nexradix). We do not include support for mp3 playback because we cannot pay the licensing fees and still provide the distro for download at no charge. Since we are a for profit company, we could very easily be sued if we were to add mp3 support without paying, even if our end-users remain safe. So instead, we only support Vorbis.

                            The more popular mp3 is, the harder it is to convince users that they should use Vorbis instead (and that they will therefore be happy with Nexradix). So the more sites there are that provide content ONLY in non-free formats, the harder it is to get people to use something else.

                            I have no issue with non-free file formats by themselves -- just make the content available in FREE formats as well. The resources required are minimal -- my company even offers to do the file conversions at no charge to those that request it.

                            Free multimedia formats like Vorbis and Theora are incredibly imporant to the sucess of Free Software platforms such as GNU/Linux. It is time more "open source" advocates started realizing it.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by yotambien View Post
                              Well, my reasoning was a bit more articulated than that; but yes, I focused on the most practical consequences of mp3 playback--don't lose sight of what was being discussed, which wasn't patents in general. Now, you seem like having a good argument there, but again you are not sharing it. I hope you realise that if you don't exchange your views this is rather pointless.
                              The argument wasn't the technical advantages of vorbis either. But that it was choosen a patented format instead of a free one. So it was the patents finally. Now, do you realy want to continue and examine why patents are good or bad? By the way you say it, looks like as if it is something that I keep secret

                              And heh, yes, you could threat Phoronix with having endless arguments in the forum about patents to coerce Michael to use Vorbis. He is perfectly aware of the bitching, as it transpires from the Ubuntu One Music Store story...which linked to this thread...and now I'm going to create a singularity (or two) by LINKING BACK TO IT!.
                              I know, I've already replied there.

                              Seriously now, what were the reasons originally given for not pleasing you? That's the core issue. You mentioned a vote or something, which I must have completely missed. As I said, I too would expect a more "OSS friendly" format, knowing what a lot of people over here think; surely there must be a reason for the decision, if only perhaps a trivial one.
                              I doubt there is a thing like "more oss friendly". It's just OSS or not. Anyway, I'm a free software advocate as you've understood so far. Like many, entered the world of Linux, because of its technical advantages (it was back in the windows98 days). My needs weren't for proffessional use so I had whatever I wanted, Loki was alive back then so I had some nice games like Myth2 and Quake3, my system for first time was fast and rock stable and as an appplied mathematics student was quite capable to configure and tweak this difficult at that time Linux thing. I had bought SuSE Linux Professional 7 something, back then, which had wonderful books which in combination with the technical support from SuSE, helped me tremendously (hell, once I had problems with my xf86config file and the support guy asked to sent it to him, he fixed it and sent it back!!! That's support).
                              On the other hand, my friends struggled with windows98 and then windowsme. Paid things that never worked in the way they supposed to (I forgot, I had my BIOS f****d up too when my last windows machine was infected by Chernobyl virus) but still they used to pirate and crack them because they wanted the best software (their words) even if they didn't do anything with it...
                              Anyway, slowly I understood what free software really means besides the technical merits and from the very begining I saw this model was working and was working pretty good. The only problem was the uni professors who demanded the experiments, the presentations and every exercise to be in ms office format. No, my poor StarOffice wasn't very good for them.
                              Ofcourse, they didn't offer something, I had to find (steal, buy) it with its operating system ofcourse together, by myself. So what did I have? Something that while worked perfectly (Linux) wasn't a viable solution because of some stupid morons fat asses who was accepting education only in specific formats. No wonder why I had crappy marks in a lot of courses... Certainly I could, always, get a pirated copy of ms office and windows98 (no millenium thank you) and do whatever the wise professors commanded. But why to follow this stupid way when you can live otherwise?
                              Since then I've met the same situation many times, under different covers. You are always forced to use things you don't want or need while there are always better alternatives... Anyway, if I let it go, I'll write till tomorrow night, the meaning is to be forced is always a sucky thing. I suppose you understand very well what I mean.
                              So what do I believe? Everything that is used by default must be free in every of its aspects. Free to be used by anyone for any purpose. That's the real fairness and equality. If someone wants to use another limited (proprietary) way because he feels he will gain something more by this, it's his right but must be only after his choice. The limited must be choosen not enforced. Unfortunately, today happens the oppossite.
                              So what do we have here? In a forum which supports freedom, in some way enforces something no free. Ofcourse an mp3 may be not a big deal, but since we have to examine it and look it from this and that angle... finally it becomes. Few things are really important till the human decides that they are. So I say in forums like these, mp3s and wmas etc etc don't have place. Only vorbis does. Is it a dogma? Maybe it is, but the free ways must be a dogma in freedom, because without them there is not freedom at all...

                              There was a vote some time ago about proprietary media formats in phoronix that was made by another pissed user like me. As we see, it didn't change anything though...

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Michael, if you want to generate more traffic to your site, use Silverlight next time. I guarantee a sh!tstorm!

                                Oh, now is a good time for me to buy Phoronix premium!.. err NO

                                Comment

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