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AMD Releases Open-Source R600/700 3D Code

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  • #76
    Originally posted by _txf_ View Post
    Any chance that later uvd implementations will be more opensource friendly?

    *dreams of os hardware bitstream decoding...then slaps himself for being so presumptuous*
    We are trying to make future GPU hardware more open source friendly and we have made a bit of progress already but most of the "ideal solutions" from an open source POV, particularly those related to video processing, end up raising the build cost for all markets so those changes tend not to make it into the product. The design pipeline is pretty long though, so the chips we can influence today won't be shipping for 2-3 years.

    Originally posted by kraftman View Post
    Bullshit, stop repeating myths about this holly 1 percent. It was good few years ago. Only idiot can say it's just 1 percent and no matter if some company etc. said that. Do they have magical way to count every Linux machine? If someone buys computer with Windows and then he replaces that system to Linux only Windows is counted. Not only market share matters but quality.
    So far the best numbers we have for PC market share come from analyzing web site hits, since that measures which OS is running on the machine "right now" rather than what it was sold with. Those numbers put Linux at just under 1% share and relatively constant, Windows at around 90% and dropping slowly, MacOS at around 8% and growing slowly. There are some quirks with web browser and OS reporting so our guess is that Linux is slightly under-reported as a result -- I use 2% for planning which I believe is higher than today's market share but I do expect to see some additional growth.

    Using web site hits obviously leaves out embedded systems and PCs without internet connections but for consumer PC market analysis that is probably reasonable (since we have other channels for embedded support).

    The server market is significantly different -- Linux is closer to 25% than 1% -- but servers tend to use stone-age graphics so again I think it's reasonable to exclude those numbers. The commercial workstation market also has a higher percentage of Linux users (mostly coming over from the proprietary Unix world) but workstation is pretty much entirely a closed-source business because of the extremely high performance expectations.
    Last edited by bridgman; 12-30-2008, 04:31 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by StefanHamminga View Post
      The R500 is perfectly supported, full 3D and all!
      I can't say that. I'm using a R500-based card (Mobility X1600), and I'm stick to fglrx, because open source radeon driver lacks PowerPlay support (which I really really need on my laptop), and the framerate on most of the games (nexuiz, open arena, scorched3d, counter strike over wine) is at least two times higher than with the radeon driver.

      For that reason I can't use compiz effects, because I can't watch video while effects are on. I would really like to know how can tearless video work with radeon driver, but not with fglrx. Even 3D applications don't flicker with compiz turned on, and all that without DRI2. I'm not the driver developer, but my guess is that while using fglrx, compiz always redraws the whole screen, while while using radeon, it redraws parts of the screen where changes occurred. I can see that when I start a full screen 3D game with compiz turned on: with radeon, the only part of the screen that flickers is the one where is conky placed (or any other window that has to be redrawed often), and with fglrx, the whole screen flickers.

      Btw., keep up with good work, AMD! Thank you very much for releasing the documentation for your graphics cards. Please, release the PowerPlay documentation ASAP - all ATI laptop users would be very grateful.

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      • #78
        Power management info for 5xx is mostly out there already (in the AtomBIOS header & tables) and is gradually being included into the open source drivers. Power management for 6xx and up is quite different; that's next on our list but is going to be both time-consuming to document and difficult to use.

        Right now most of the open source power management work is being done in the userspace drivers, which limits the amount of power saving possible -- eventually power management is going to have to be done in the drm (kernel module) if we want to match what the proprietary drivers can do.

        3D apps *should* flicker under Compiz even with the open source drivers, unless you have the "don't redirect fullscreen windows" option set in Compiz and are running a fullscreen app (that works with fglrx as well). The video code in fglrx is being upgraded so you should continue to see improvements there.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by rbmorse View Post
          How do you determine market share? Pull numbers that make you feel good out of your ass?
          Let's say Linux usage on desktops. Like Bridgman said: market share come from analyzing web site hits. That's correct, but some people count it as I mentioned before. Many Linux users just keep as far as possible from some sites that are being used to count Linux market share. It's enough for me just to use highest quality system to feel good. How do you explain that few years ago people was repeating same myth about 1%? Linux is growing faster than before, so it's strange.

          But...I'll make you feel better. When your market share is less than 2 percent (and after all this time, to boot) it's hard to get people very interested in you. Fact of life.
          This way you made yourself feel out of your ass better?

          EDIT:

          What time to boot?

          @bridgman

          Btw. Now I'm sure that my next card will be AMD/Ati :> Thanks for that!
          Last edited by kraftman; 12-30-2008, 04:44 PM.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by DoDoENT View Post
            I can't say that. I'm using a R500-based card (Mobility X1600), and I'm stick to fglrx, because open source radeon driver lacks PowerPlay support (which I really really need on my laptop), and the framerate on most of the games (nexuiz, open arena, scorched3d, counter strike over wine) is at least two times higher than with the radeon driver.
            Let me tell you, I'm a Mobility X1600 camper and so far I'm happy with the open-source driver.

            PowerPlay is WIP, as John mentioned, don't worry.

            I will happily play Nexuiz with the crappy OpenGL 1.3 implementation of this driver anyday over fglrx that hangs my computer upon exiting Nexuiz.

            Compiz is waaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than what fglrx delivers. 2d is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay faster. Even probably OGL 1.3 is faster than OGL 1.3 in fglrx.

            Tear-freaking-free video playback!
            Flicker-freaking-free video playback with compiz!

            So to me, why you use fglrx, is a bit unjustified when you have in mind all the goodies coming in 2009 like Gallium, KMS, DRI2.

            I will not be using fglrx anytime soon, even if they decode video with the GPU, but that won't be possible on r500 anyway. Fglrx is just one long, boring drag. I've had enough of it.
            Last edited by sundown; 12-30-2008, 05:38 PM.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by bridgman View Post
              workstation is pretty much entirely a closed-source business because of the extremely high performance expectations.
              That explains why they're running Linux along with a crapload of open source GNU software. Yeah, closed source ftw

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              • #82
                Yeah

                It's probably obvious but when I said "high performance expectations" I was talking about the graphics subsystem where the drivers are hugely complex and proprietary drivers still have an edge.

                Seriously, I think a lot of the Linux workstation users are there not because GNU/Linux is "free like speech", but rather because the "free like beer" aspect of GNU/Linux killed off most of the commercial Unix vendors so they shifted to Linux instead. Most of the workstation market is running RHEL or SLED/SLES for the commercial support so for them it's "just like Unix" and software freedom just gives them something interesting to read about on the internet.

                On the other hand, those users (and the commercial Unix vendors) also drove a good chunk of the $$ investment in Linux graphics over the last 10 years, so be nice to them
                Last edited by bridgman; 12-30-2008, 06:06 PM.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by kraftman View Post
                  How do you explain that few years ago people was repeating same myth about 1%? Linux is growing faster than before, so it's strange.
                  Easy, and it's not at all strange. Linux may be growing -- I see no substantiation of this oft-quoted folklore -- but even if it is, it's not growing as fast as the total number of computers in use. Ergo, market share stays where it's been for the last several years, fairly constant at just under 1%.

                  I'm finished with this. If you come up with some real data as opposed to wishful thinking, start a new topic.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                    Seriously, I think a lot of the Linux workstation users are there not because GNU/Linux is "free like speech", but rather because the "free like beer" aspect of GNU/Linux killed off most of the commercial Unix vendors so they shifted to Linux instead. Most of the workstation market is running RHEL or SLED/SLES for the commercial support so for them it's "just like Unix" and software freedom just gives them something interesting to read about on the internet.
                    I think it's more than that. We all tend to forget a bit what "open" means. It mainly means that those corporations have access to the source and that brings some benefits, like being able to adapt the code or pay someone to adapt it (or fix it) to their needs. The romantic part of "open" is nice to read about, but we mostly care about the practical benefits. It would be nice if I could fix or pay someone to fix fglrx for me, no?

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                    • #85
                      Besides performance improvements, there is a old problem who persists on R500 radeon driver.

                      I'm using a x1600pro, with the latest radeon package on Jaunty Alpha 2.

                      Xorg.conf Settings:

                      Section "Device"
                      Identifier "Configured Video Device"
                      Option "AGPMode" "8"
                      Option "EXAVSync" "1"
                      EndSection


                      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


                      (==) RADEON(0): Using EXA acceleration architecture
                      (==) RADEON(0): Not using accelerated EXA DownloadFromScreen hook
                      (II) RADEON(0): Setting EXA maxPitchBytes
                      (II) EXA(0): Offscreen pixmap area of 116195328 bytes
                      (II) EXA(0): Driver registered support for the following operations:
                      (WW) RADEON(0): Option "EXAVSync" is not used





                      This picture is not from my PC.

                      I couldn't screenshot it, but I've found this picture taken but a Windows user at guru3d that shows exactly what happens with my hardware.

                      So, It will (When will) be possible to get rid off this horizontal line?

                      KMS, GEM, DRI2 or Gallium3?

                      Anyone?

                      Thanks for reading

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by phoronix View Post
                        Phoronix: AMD Releases Open-Source R600/700 3D Code
                        Any chance AMD will spread the wealth eventually and provide the same sanitized support for their Imageon processors?

                        It's kinda dirty that AMD can on one hand provide open-source support on the PC, but then completely deny the existence and documentation of their Imageon GPUs still shipping in new phone devices including Android and Windows Mobile. Makes this release look more like a PR stunt than a real, internal, culture shift.

                        Maybe AMD really doesn't care about the embedded market, nor that the victor is solidifying around PowerVR with their much more generous documentation and support.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                          Besides performance improvements, there is a old problem who persists on R500 radeon driver.

                          I'm using a x1600pro, with the latest radeon package on Jaunty Alpha 2.

                          Xorg.conf Settings:

                          Section "Device"
                          Identifier "Configured Video Device"
                          Option "AGPMode" "8"
                          Option "EXAVSync" "1"
                          EndSection


                          _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


                          (==) RADEON(0): Using EXA acceleration architecture
                          (==) RADEON(0): Not using accelerated EXA DownloadFromScreen hook
                          (II) RADEON(0): Setting EXA maxPitchBytes
                          (II) EXA(0): Offscreen pixmap area of 116195328 bytes
                          (II) EXA(0): Driver registered support for the following operations:
                          (WW) RADEON(0): Option "EXAVSync" is not used



                          This picture is not from my PC.

                          I couldn't screenshot it, but I've found this picture taken but a Windows user at guru3d that shows exactly what happens with my hardware.

                          So, It will (When will) be possible to get rid off this horizontal line?

                          KMS, GEM, DRI2 or Gallium3?

                          Anyone?

                          Thanks for reading

                          Your not alone, I have exactly the same tearing. In addition to that I cant switch VT's. The light on the monitor turns amber, and I lose the connection to the monitor.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                            Besides performance improvements, there is a old problem who persists on R500 radeon driver.

                            I'm using a x1600pro, with the latest radeon package on Jaunty Alpha 2.

                            <snip>

                            (==) RADEON(0): Using EXA acceleration architecture
                            (==) RADEON(0): Not using accelerated EXA DownloadFromScreen hook
                            (II) RADEON(0): Setting EXA maxPitchBytes
                            (II) EXA(0): Offscreen pixmap area of 116195328 bytes
                            (II) EXA(0): Driver registered support for the following operations:
                            (WW) RADEON(0): Option "EXAVSync" is not used

                            <snip>

                            So, It will (When will) be possible to get rid off this horizontal line?
                            Based on the error message, I expect the radeon code in the latest package might not be new enough. Can you get a date or commit number from your log ? The tear-free code only went in a couple of weeks ago.

                            Originally posted by NuShrike View Post
                            Any chance AMD will spread the wealth eventually and provide the same sanitized support for their Imageon processors?

                            It's kinda dirty that AMD can on one hand provide open-source support on the PC, but then completely deny the existence and documentation of their Imageon GPUs still shipping in new phone devices including Android and Windows Mobile. Makes this release look more like a PR stunt than a real, internal, culture shift.

                            Maybe AMD really doesn't care about the embedded market, nor that the victor is solidifying around PowerVR with their much more generous documentation and support.
                            NuShrike, as I mentioned before AMD have announced plans to sell the Imageon division. I have asked internally about the possibility of providing open source support for the handheld products, but I don't think that is likely to happen until new owners have a chance to participate in the decision.
                            Last edited by bridgman; 12-30-2008, 07:20 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                              So, It will (When will) be possible to get rid off this horizontal line?
                              that's called tearing. It should be gone for most users with the latest driver from ati git or the 6.9.0.91 rc release.

                              Originally posted by hobbes View Post
                              (WW) RADEON(0): Option "EXAVSync" is not used
                              Looks like your driver is too old.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                                Based on the error message, I expect the radeon code in the latest package might not be new enough. Can you get a date or commit number from your log ? The tear-free code only went in a couple of weeks ago.
                                X.Org X Server 1.5.99.3
                                Release Date: (unreleased)
                                X Protocol Version 11, Revision 0
                                Build Operating System: Linux 2.6.24-15-server x86_64 Ubuntu
                                Current Operating System: Linux jaunty-desktop 2.6.28-4-generic #5-Ubuntu SMP Fri Dec 26 22:48:55 UTC 2008 x86_64
                                Build Date: 17 December 2008 03:13:46AM
                                xorg-server 2:1.5.99.3-0ubuntu3 (buildd@crested.buildd)
                                ______

                                apt-cache policy xserver-xorg-video-radeon
                                xserver-xorg-video-radeon:
                                Instalado: 1:6.9.0+git20081003.f9826a56-0ubuntu6
                                Candidato: 1:6.9.0+git20081003.f9826a56-0ubuntu6
                                Tabela de versão:
                                *** 1:6.9.0+git20081003.f9826a56-0ubuntu6 0
                                500 http://ftp.ubuntu.com jaunty/main Packages
                                500 http://archive.ubuntu.com jaunty/main Packages
                                100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
                                ________


                                full log: http://pastebin.com/m13b7c9c7

                                very latest packages.

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