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NVIDIA, Mentor Graphics May Harm GCC

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Jesse2004 View Post
    Hope that Intel would release discrete graphic cards some day. Intel is the only big guy that sincerely supports open source and open standard.
    Sincerely? Come on, this is a big corp, they have an interest in supporting Linux, Android, etc. But I agree they are doing more efforts than all others!

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Temar View Post
      And? I also need a Nvidia card to use it in the first place. Oh my god, they are taking my freedom away to use any card I want!!1!11
      Well for starters this issue has nothing to do with using your card there are plenty of ways to make use of your card without using GCC.

      Originally posted by Temar View Post
      How does this take away any of your freedom? Before they had an OpenACC to OpenCL backend. Now they will have an additional OpenACC to PTX backend. This does not take away any freedom, but adds more freedom!
      Maybe you should go do some research on the history of the GNU project and the Free Software Foundation. If such a relaxed view on software freedom had been taken GNU\Linux would not be in such a strong state as it is today and you would likely not be making use of you Nvidia card on anything other than Windows.

      Originally posted by Temar View Post
      I'm with the people who call this article pure FUD. Articles like this are the reason why Michael no longer gets AMD cards. Improved interoperability between open source software and closed source software is never poisonous, as long as it is optional. People who do not want to use this new backend can still decide not to compile it into their gcc and their gcc version will just work fine as before. The gcc compiler as a whole does not depend on the Nvidia driver, only the openacc->ptx backend does.
      Again if the GNU was to cave on its principals so easily free and open software would not be in such a good position today. There would be no one pushing companies to produce more open software. I Nvidia wants to maintain there our fork of GCC that contains this support then great good on them, but if they want to enjoy the benifits of this being merged upstream then the should come to the table and make a real effort to comply to the GNU principals.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by tarceri View Post
        Well for starters this issue has nothing to do with using your card there are plenty of ways to make use of your card without using GCC.
        Furthermore, he didn't pay GCC to make his card usable. He paid nvidia, so it's not GCC problem. If there's a problem it's nvidia.

        Comment


        • #34
          http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2013-07/msg00428.html
          Thomas Schwinge (Mentor Graphics) talked about their plans to support
          OpenACC in GCC; OpenACC constructs and the enclosed code are transformed
          into NVIDIA's PTX virtual ISA and calls into CUDA libraries.
          So it will depend on PTX and CUDA... As to the possible implications, I'd leave it to the GCC Steering Committee.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Temar View Post
            How does this take away any of your freedom? Before they had an OpenACC to OpenCL backend. Now they will have an additional OpenACC to PTX backend.
            OpenCL is opened and documented. PTX is neither.
            How is it difficult to understand?
            Many people in Phoronix don't seem to understand that most free software developers are before anything else concerned with freedom and having fun, more than market share or anything else. It may not suit these peoples goals or fanboyism, but that's still how it works.
            The article claims are basically well known : Nvidia track records as far as openness is concerned is just horrible and this OpenACC/PTX stuff is basically no change at all.
            I mean, if you're not concerned by proprietary software and if freedom and open source is of lesse concern to you, why use Linux after all? Use OSX or Windows, they both work rather well.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by tarceri View Post
              Well for starters this issue has nothing to do with using your card there are plenty of ways to make use of your card without using GCC.
              This was sarcasm and it was not about gcc in general but about the new backend which obviously requires a nvidia card.


              Originally posted by tarceri View Post
              Maybe you should go do some research on the history of the GNU project and the Free Software Foundation. If such a relaxed view on software freedom had been taken GNU\Linux would not be in such a strong state as it is today and you would likely not be making use of you Nvidia card on anything other than Windows.
              Bollocks! The FSF did a very good job with the GPL and the GPL is all that's needed to enforce the freedom of a project. This topic however does not threaten software freedom. We are talking about simple interoperability here. That's why it is not covered by the GPL because it does not threaten the freedom of a project in any way. Adding a new gcc backend which generates code for a new architecture simply does not affect freedom of gcc. No matter how strong or relaxed your view is.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by GT220 View Post
                Ask the "trusted source" to out their identity, I can guarantee you that person is a coward with no balls, writing poison pen letters with malicious intent.
                Hmm, as if they released it anonymously for a reason.. What's that.. to discourage personal attacks from the likes of you?

                I fucking hate you-need-a-name hypocrites. Only the message matters, who said it is completely irrelevant.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by rvdboom View Post
                  OpenCL is opened and documented. PTX is neither.
                  How is it difficult to understand?
                  And? Is that a reason not to support it? Most of your hardware in your computer has most likely a proprietary firmware and you still use it. If Nvidia cards could directly understand PTX would the new backend suddenly be OK then?

                  Originally posted by rvdboom View Post
                  Many people in Phoronix don't seem to understand that most free software developers are before anything else concerned with freedom and having fun, more than market share or anything else. It may not suit these peoples goals or fanboyism, but that's still how it works.
                  Most developers? All I see is that most big OpenSource projects have a very relaxed stance. Just look at the Linux kernel itself or projects like Blender, XBMC and so on. Of course this all happens within the confinements of the GPL but that's ok. Even important as it keeps those projects free.

                  All I can see is that many people on Phoronix have a blind hate for anything that is closed source. Whereas most of the actual open source developers have a relaxed view.

                  Originally posted by rvdboom View Post
                  I mean, if you're not concerned by proprietary software and if freedom and open source is of lesse concern to you, why use Linux after all? Use OSX or Windows, they both work rather well.
                  Is that your last resort argument? I can tell you the answer: Simply because Linux is the best tool for my line of work. It's that easy, no hidden agendas and no fanboism, neither for free nor for closed software. I simply want a tool that works best and this new gcc backend is another step to an even better tool.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Yorgos View Post
                    RMS: nVidia puts its hands on gcc? nVidia ...
                    p.s. it's not photoshop.... it's mspaint
                    So why bother coming to a Linux website if you don't even use Linux?. Just to troll or something?. A lot of people these days claiming to use Linux, yet spend 99% of their time using Windows and coming to places like this to "pretend". Either use it, or don't, stop being fake.

                    One thing is for certain that I personally learned, you can't use both. Windows constantly locks you in and makes you come back, only when you fully break free of Windows can you truly use a different OS. Same thing applies to any addiction.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Temar View Post
                      Bollocks! The FSF did a very good job with the GPL and the GPL is all that's needed to enforce the freedom of a project. This topic however does not threaten software freedom. We are talking about simple interoperability here. That's why it is not covered by the GPL because it does not threaten the freedom of a project in any way. Adding a new gcc backend which generates code for a new architecture simply does not affect freedom of gcc. No matter how strong or relaxed your view is.
                      What part do you not understand? This solution adds a closed source dependency to gcc, hence reduced freedom. PTX is not a hardware architecture it Nvidias way of hiding their architecture behind proprietary software.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Mike Frett View Post
                        So why bother coming to a Linux website if you don't even use Linux?. Just to troll or something?. A lot of people these days claiming to use Linux, yet spend 99% of their time using Windows and coming to places like this to "pretend". Either use it, or don't, stop being fake.

                        One thing is for certain that I personally learned, you can't use both. Windows constantly locks you in and makes you come back, only when you fully break free of Windows can you truly use a different OS. Same thing applies to any addiction.
                        speculations over speculations and in the end cheap assumptions.
                        good job retard, here is a potato


                        new form of linux users called linux nazis. "WAS? not a full time linux user? nach Auschwitz!"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Temar View Post
                          Is that your last resort argument? I can tell you the answer: Simply because Linux is the best tool for my line of work. It's that easy, no hidden agendas and no fanboism, neither for free nor for closed software. I simply want a tool that works best and this new gcc backend is another step to an even better tool.
                          Either thats not true, because there are this big big retards out there that care about freedom and hinder the success of such stuff you like and in macosx or windows u would not have such freedom "retards", or the other OSes have even bigger problems.

                          If last is true, why do you use such harsh words for such small problems, or do you call everybody a asshole or worse stuff, or try to piss on the reputation of a professional journalist, or call it blogger doesnt matter, just because he has a slightly different oppionion on stuff than u?

                          If thats only a small problem why this extreme anger, I dont get it.

                          lets say u are right, and there are 50% very pragmatic lets even say there would be 80% very pragmatic and 20% very fanatic people in that community from your viewpoint, except even the pragmatic linus gave nvidia a "f you", why would I want to stay there, what does macosx really worse than linux except its unfree? Its hard to say but they do a pretty good job and on some fronts there even ahead, so why choose linux if you dont care about freedom?

                          to the pragmatic guys, of course 80% are at least a bit pragmatic at least in what they are using (unfree bioses and firmwares...) but that doesnt neccessary mean that they all not wish 100% free software as their goal, they are maybe willing to take some compromises to come the goal closer but that doesnt mean that they dont share the same ideals.

                          Basicly they are just not united in what the right way to get to that goal is, just get market dominance first, and care a bit less about freedom, or getting 100% freedom first and then get slowly more and more people to this 100% freedom.

                          Maybe thats a bit simplified and only my opinion but k.

                          And of course thats worth a news. the readers of this article can than desite for themself if they think that issiue is really a problem or not. So hidding such information just to calm some nvidia-fanboys is not the job of bloggers or journalists or something between.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Temar View Post
                            All I can see is that many people on Phoronix have a blind hate for anything that is closed source.
                            Why are people constantly surprised by this? You are on the Phoronix forums a website created by Michael Larabel "Through all of his work he is a Linux and free software advocate with strong support for GNOME, Wayland, LLVM, PHP, X.Org, Fedora, and Ubuntu, among other open-source projects. " source - http://www.michaellarabel.com

                            Its no secret people here are strong vocal supporters of open source. The surprising thing is how many people feel the need to troll here criticising people (including Michael) for their views.

                            Originally posted by Temar View Post
                            Is that your last resort argument? I can tell you the answer: Simply because Linux is the best tool for my line of work. It's that easy, no hidden agendas and no fanboism, neither for free nor for closed software. I simply want a tool that works best and this new gcc backend is another step to an even better tool.
                            Sure that explains why you use Linux but it doesn't explain why you visit a site created by a free software advocate and feel the need to criticise him for posting his views on his own website.

                            Originally posted by Temar View Post
                            Whereas most of the actual open source developers have a relaxed view.
                            Most developers need to pay bills and feed their family they are paid to have a relaxed view. Its just the way the world works but there seems to be a pretty good balance in most major FOSS projects which is a good thing. The point I've been trying to make is gcc is a GNU project and is subject to higher standards than most open source projects hence why a standard Linux kernel is not considered part of the GNU project.

                            Anyway I think I've eaten enough troll bait to keep me full for the next six months so I'm going to leave it at that.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                              Either thats not true, because there are this big big retards out there that care about freedom and hinder the success of such stuff you like and in macosx or windows u would not have such freedom "retards", or the other OSes have even bigger problems.

                              If last is true, why do you use such harsh words for such small problems, or do you call everybody a asshole or worse stuff, or try to piss on the reputation of a professional journalist, or call it blogger doesnt matter, just because he has a slightly different oppionion on stuff than u?

                              If thats only a small problem why this extreme anger, I dont get it.
                              I don't see any anger in my posts, nor did I call anyone names. You are the one talking about "retards" and you see anger where there is none. I simply have a different opinion which you obviously don't like.


                              Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                              And of course thats worth a news. the readers of this article can than desite for themself if they think that issiue is really a problem or not. So hidding such information just to calm some nvidia-fanboys is not the job of bloggers or journalists or something between.
                              This is not about fanboism, I could not care less about Nvidia or AMD. As I have written multiple times in the past, I use the tools which work best for me. Today this is Nvidia but tomorrow this might very well be AMD. I need a solution that works and not a religion.

                              Also this is not about hiding information. Michael's article is just plain FUD, he could have very well presented the same article as a real news article. Instead he chose to use click-bait but in the end he should no complain about vendors not sending any cards for testing.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by tarceri View Post
                                Its no secret people here are strong vocal supporters of open source. The surprising thing is how many people feel the need to troll here criticising people (including Michael) for their views.

                                Sure that explains why you use Linux but it doesn't explain why you visit a site created by a free software advocate and feel the need to criticise him for posting his views on his own website.
                                Well, Michael offers a forum and invites anyone for discussions. It seems however that some people on this forum are not interested in an open discussion but rather circle jerk with their own kind and call anyone with a different opinion a troll.

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