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NVIDIA 304.37 Linux Driver Brings 41 Official Changes

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  • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
    There's also the issue of trying to force manufacturers to disclose their hardware specs and force open source down their throats. If they don't want to, then you've got problems. And the source of those problems is you, not the manufacturer.
    Nobody is shoving anything down your throat, you are free to use whatever you want -- including a blob.

    It is you who are shoving closed-source down our throats, and into the kernel. Just open up the documentation, then OSS proponents can ALSO have a choice.

    For you, forcing closed source blobs on everyone is great, but offering a CHOICE between an open driver and a closed one is "forcing open source down their throats". If you don't want to run a FLOSS system, there are many operating systems for you to choose from. Why are you trying to dictate Linux developers how to license their shit? You have BSD, you can shove any old shit in there, go use that.

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    • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      You were talking about Intel Linux vs. Intel Windows. If these are similar, then it is a hardware issue, and not the driver. Like I claimed.
      and the Linux driver serverly lacks behind what the windows driver has;http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTA5NzM

      Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      Yes, Mesa is lagging on some OpenGL stuff. OpenGL 4 is some ways off. But 3.3 is just around the corner. For me, a driver with VAAPI, OpenGL 3.3, excellent powersaving, blazingly fast 2d and perfect integration is a top-notch driver.
      top-notch would mean to me, being equal or surpasses all other drivers - this is not the case with Intel's linux drivers. and as far as VAAPI is concerned, i have been using VDPAU for a very long time, yet VAAPI is something you currently still can't use, so claiming your driver is 'top-notch' is off the mark.

      Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      Nvidia driver is fast, but it will fuck up your system if you upgrade the kernel, doesn't support most mobile hardware currently being sold, and is not available out-of-the-box on pretty much anything, requiring jumping through hoops to get it working. Pick what you prefer.
      Actually, no it doesn't 'fuck up my system'. When i have upgraded my kernel - i run a single command to install nvidia ~ how is that screwing up my system, exactly? (hint: it isn't by any stretch of the imagination). the worst that could possibly happen is when i reboot X fails ~ big deal, boo hoo ~ very easy to fix (with one command, followed by loading the nvidia module and stating X. As far as Optimus is concerned in laptops, thier is lots of blame to go around and doesn't only fall on Nvidia (as already discussed) and i think you are exaggerating to begin with. As far as OOTB - it takes me no effort at all to install the nvidia drivers on a new system - ie: i don't 'jump through hoops' to get it working ~ that is a load of BS.

      and yes, i have 'picked what i prefer' ~ which is Nvidia because it is better than AMD or Intel for GFX in Linux.

      Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
      That thread clearly says that the benchmarks are running 6 months-old drivers, and that huge improvements have landed in the meantime, which had not been benchmarked there.
      then why don't you benchmark your system with these new improvements, rather than just making (what i consider baseless claims) unless, you provide 'real world' data to support your claims.
      Last edited by ninez; 08-17-2012, 12:23 PM.

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      • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
        Nobody is shoving anything down your throat, you are free to use whatever you want -- including a blob.

        It is you who are shoving closed-source down our throats, and into the kernel. Just open up the documentation, then OSS proponents can ALSO have a choice.

        For you, forcing closed source blobs on everyone is great, but offering a CHOICE between an open driver and a closed one is "forcing open source down their throats". If you don't want to run a FLOSS system, there are many operating systems for you to choose from. Why are you trying to dictate Linux developers how to license their shit? You have BSD, you can shove any old shit in there, go use that.
        How contradictory. First you claim that Linux isn't forcing open source on vendors, then you say it does and if you don't like it then go away.

        "Why are you trying to dictate Linux developers how to license their shit?"
        Oh yeah? Why are linux devs trying to dictate NVidia how to license their shit? They aren't forcing them? What about the "fuck you NVidia" thing?
        Last edited by RealNC; 08-17-2012, 12:20 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
          Nobody is shoving anything down your throat, you are free to use whatever you want -- including a blob.

          It is you who are shoving closed-source down our throats, and into the kernel. Just open up the documentation, then OSS proponents can ALSO have a choice.

          For you, forcing closed source blobs on everyone is great, but offering a CHOICE between an open driver and a closed one is "forcing open source down their throats". If you don't want to run a FLOSS system, there are many operating systems for you to choose from. Why are you trying to dictate Linux developers how to license their shit? You have BSD, you can shove any old shit in there, go use that.
          except you didn't actually read what he wrote. He was saying kernel developers are trying to force manufacturers, not force things down RealNC's throat. Using some simple logic and reason here ~ can you actually explain how RealNC is shoving closed-source down your throat, exactly?? and if him or I choose to install Nvidia on our local machines, we are not forcing anything into the kernel. Linux kernel developers allowed Nvidia into the kernel in the first place by not making everything EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL.

          the OS proponents do have a choice, use Nouveau or don't use Nvidia hardware - it's pretty simple :\

          ...and no one is dictating how linux kernel developers should be licensing thier code ~ it is entirely up to them. Please, stop making up stuff.

          I really don't see why you are getting so mad - take a chill pill, k?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ninez View Post
            top-notch would mean to me, being equal or surpasses all other drivers - this is not the case with Intel's linux drivers.
            Then no driver is top-notch, because no driver can claim this, least of all Nvidia's blob.

            Intel's driver offers performance on par with Windows, offers HW decode and complete powersaving, GL 3 (3.3 is around the corner), that's a top-notch driver. OpenCL is missing, but nobody is using Intel's stuff for that anyway.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ninez View Post
              except you didn't actually read what he wrote. He was saying kernel developers are trying to force manufacturers, not force things down RealNC's throat.
              That's also not true. They want a release of documentation.

              Using some simple logic and reason here ~ can you actually explain how RealNC is shoving closed-source down your throat, exactly??
              By preventing a fully-featured open source driver. The result is that (without nouveau), you cannot run Nvidia on a fully open system. That's the definition of pushing closed source down the throats of every nvidia owner.

              Just release the documentation, give people a CHOICE.

              the OS proponents do have a choice, use Nouveau or don't use Nvidia hardware - it's pretty simple :\
              And the only sane answer to this is: Fuck you Nvidia!

              ...and no one is dictating how linux kernel developers should be licensing thier code ~ it is entirely up to them. Please, stop making up stuff.
              This whole discussion is about licensing of exported symbols, isn't it?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                How contradictory. First you claim that Linux isn't forcing open source on vendors, then you say it does and if you don't like it then go away.
                No, I said that YOU can use anything you want.

                Kernel is GPL with an exception for modules. Nothing has changed about that, and Nvidia is still making their binary blob, and nobody has forced them to do anything.

                This anti-GPL, "everything must be closed" astroturfing is tiresome. Just release the documentation and keep your blob. Why do you fear people runnign a free driver? What do you lose if nouveau gets better?

                Oh yeah? Why are linux devs trying to dictate NVidia how to license their shit? They aren't forcing them? What about the "fuck you NVidia" thing?
                When did linux devs try to dictate how Nvidia should license their shit?

                Source please.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                  Then no driver is top-notch, because no driver can claim this, least of all Nvidia's blob.
                  So supporting all of the latest Kronos/GL standards, out performing all other drivers available ~ outperforming the Windows driver in Valve's benchmarking doesn't count, supporting xorg 1.13 before AMD doesn't count, nor does anything else?? ya, right.

                  it sounds to me like you are just a hater - and if you hate Nvidia - then why waste your energy, trolling an Nvidia trhead ~ wouldn't your time be better served doing something else?

                  Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                  Intel's driver offers performance on par with Windows, offers HW decode and complete powersaving, GL 3 (3.3 is around the corner), that's a top-notch driver. OpenCL is missing, but nobody is using Intel's stuff for that anyway.
                  You keep talking about all these great things around the corner, the problem is (of course) all of these things already exist in Windows and are being taken advantage of by the OS and software developers. So NO, it is not 'on par' ~ and that is VERY obvious.

                  again - take a chill pill, and stop trolling. if you don't like Nvidia then don't buy their products, but stop bitching/trolling about it. it's that simple.

                  I think Intel is doing a relatively good job, providing decent drivers and should be applauded for their efforts, but i am not delusional enough to make the claims you are.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                    That's also not true. They want a release of documentation.
                    And thus are trying to force "open-ness".


                    By preventing a fully-featured open source driver. The result is that (without nouveau), you cannot run Nvidia on a fully open system.
                    So what?

                    That's the definition of pushing closed source down the throats of every nvidia owner.
                    No, it's not. NVidia never claimed that their products were open. In fact, they even claimed that they don't even intent to open them. You have prior knowledge before you buy.

                    Just release the documentation, give people a CHOICE.
                    If someone doesn't want to disclose their specs, you must be a able to respect their decision. Choice is already there: don't buy NVidia if open specs are important to you. It's as simple as that.

                    And the only sane answer to this is: Fuck you Nvidia!
                    Actually, it's a troll answer, not a sane answer :-/

                    This whole discussion is about licensing of exported symbols, isn't it?
                    It's also about forcing companies to change their business model just because their current one doesn't happen to suit you.

                    Comment


                    • if your main concern is open drivers then stick with intel gpu or low-end ati.
                      if your main concern is quality and performance then stick with high end ati or nvidia (more nvidia tbf) its quite simple.

                      I buy nvidia (and recently upgrade to a 500 series from an aging 9000) because they provide the best support and performance.

                      ATI NEVER opened their drivers NOR their specs
                      AMD open the specs NOT the drivers because they couldn't provide support not out of good will...

                      nvidia have shown time and time again they provide good support (for cards in their support list) for newer xorg api/abi etc...


                      What is nvidia's incentives in opening the spec or driver?
                      is it the competition? not really, ati open drivers are still miles behind
                      Want nvidia to open their drivers then either support via your wallet by going to ati, support via your dev skills (if you have any) to get ati drivers upto par. bad mouthing and being a self-entitled dick is not going todo it.



                      Do you bitch an moan about Intel/AMD not opening their microcode? bitch and moan to mobo makers to open their bios? seems more like a selective hate than a true advocate of openness...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ninez View Post
                        So supporting all of the latest Kronos/GL standards, out performing all other drivers available ~ outperforming the Windows driver in Valve's benchmarking doesn't count, supporting xorg 1.13 before AMD doesn't count, nor does anything else?? ya, right.
                        Nvidia blob is fine from a performance view -- I've never claimed the opposite.

                        But they don't support xrandr fully, they don't support many Nvidia products (Intel's drivers support EVERYTHING), they are not fully integrated in distributions because kernel bits need to be recompiled at every upgrade, and there's the added bonus of breaking when your hardware support gets dropped to maintenance mode.

                        So they don't do everything better than every other driver, like you claim

                        it sounds to me like you are just a hater - and if you hate Nvidia - then why waste your energy, trolling an Nvidia trhead ~ wouldn't your time be better served doing something else?
                        No, I don't have Nvidia, I hate the fact that they are snubbing the OSS crowd and refusing to release documentation for their stuff. Instead of blacklisting nouveau -- or maybe in addition to blacklisting it -- they should also help them a bit. The fact that they don't shows that they are acting like assholes.

                        Same was true for ATi before the AMD takeover.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                          No, it's not. NVidia never claimed that their products were open. In fact, they even claimed that they don't even intent to open them. You have prior knowledge before you buy.
                          Linus never claimed that the linux kernel is closed, or that he intends to compromise its development model for people who insist on being closed. In fact, he has always clearly stated the opposite.

                          You have prior knowledge before you buy. Linux is not for you.

                          It's also about forcing companies to change their business model just because their current one doesn't happen to suit you.
                          Linux is older than Nvidia. Companies shouldn't force it to change its development model just because it doesn't happen to suit their business strategy.

                          Other vendors are working very happily within the Linux community. If you find that you have problems with your closed-source drivers, maybe you're using wrong hardware, or the wrong OS.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Naib View Post
                            What is nvidia's incentives in opening the spec or driver?
                            Working Optimus support. With the rise of the APUs, all supported out of the box by open drivers, this is a killer feature.

                            Do you bitch an moan about Intel/AMD not opening their microcode? bitch and moan to mobo makers to open their bios?
                            I do.

                            Coreboot will do fine for my next computer, and firmware (which runs on the gfx board, not inside your kernel) is an annoyance, but a much smaller one than replacing half of userspace with a blob.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              That's also not true. They want a release of documentation.
                              Whether they want them to release documentation is a moot point, it doesn't change the fact, they are denying Nvidia access to things that would improve the Nvidia experience for their userbase, including things like Optimus.

                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              By preventing a fully-featured open source driver. The result is that (without nouveau), you cannot run Nvidia on a fully open system. That's the definition of pushing closed source down the throats of every nvidia owner.
                              I specifically chose Nvidia in FULL knowledge of what i was buying ~ Nvidia didn't shove anything down my throat. And quite Frankly, none of the OSS drivers are fully-featured - and we've already been over this. Stop making fallacious BS claims. AMD gives specs - is radeon a fully-featured OSS driver? nope..

                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              Just release the documentation, give people a CHOICE.
                              People have a choice.

                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              And the only sane answer to this is: Fuck you Nvidia!
                              Or let the free-market system work, how it is intended to work. ie: don't buy nvidia if you don't want to support them, and let the free market do the rest.

                              Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
                              This whole discussion is about licensing of exported symbols, isn't it?
                              not really. Nobody is dictating to the kernel developers how they are to license the code that they write. We may be discussing various aspects of exported symbols ~ but that is entirely different.

                              seriously, you need to relax and think about this stuff a little more critically.

                              EDIT: anyway, this is just turning into a flame-war and you are just trolling and hating on Nvidia. I'm pretty much done with the conversation.
                              Last edited by ninez; 08-17-2012, 01:09 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Don't forget that this whole thing started by a bunch of kiddies shouting abuse at me, and then following it with silly arguments.

                                I've said what I needed to say in the first post. Release the documentation.

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