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NVIDIA PR Responds To Torvalds' Harsh Words

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Darkseider View Post
    nVidia is full of crap. Let's take a look at all of the Android based hardware out there on the Tegra 2 that has been forgotten about and left behind because we have NO DRIVERS for their hardware. O2X, G2X, Viewsonic GTab, etc... All we want is open drivers that can be used to implement hardware acceleration but NOOOOOO... nVidia is too engrossed in being ass hats to give us that.
    I Agree... There is a ton of issues on the Open source kernel front. In fact, a true blue case in point is how horrible the arm support is maintained. The Viewsonic GTablet does have the open source parts of the device released, but key features are lost in translation from android 2.2 to 4.x. It'd be excellent if these features where fixed to further remove the dependence on the original maker, but i doubt it.

    However, on a decent note, at least nvidia does release the all open source components at a somewhat regular pace, and increasingly their vendors are following suite. I actually can think of a few large companies that release linux devices but fail to provide the kernel source ( For example, Pandigital, and most chinese tablets ).



    Originally posted by talvik View Post
    Linus criticized from a Linux kernel developer point of view. He didn't say: "Fu**in' artifacts and frame drops when I'm pawning noobs in ETQW"
    The PR, as usual, gave a canned response that is only marginally related to the main issue.
    I totally agree. While from an end user point of view ATI might be a hassle at first ( when dealing with the binary only driver), but this is because nvidia has had a stranglehold on the end user graphics/games in the linux market for too long. I actually am getting tired of the argument that nvidia is just plain better on linux. It's only "better" because of the fact that too many developers have flocked to this graphics vendor, and not enough have setup a somewhat proper test setup. Anyways, I will still suggest AMD over Nvidia is for the fact that AMD has much better open source driver support ( although that is only through multiple documentation releases), and in the longer term the amd product would be better.



    Originally posted by pingufunkybeat View Post
    Their answer was not targeted at Linus.

    Their answer was meant for clueless users who are being fed the "religious fanatics of FOSS" crap by astroturfers and who probably only want to play some games under Wine on Ubuntu.

    The fact that kernel developers have a really hard time dealing with Nvidia hardware is something they don't want addressed, so they bring out the PR candy about features and products and corporate vision and progress and freedom and universal human rights. So the casual user, who blames SuSE when his blob fucks up, keeps buying the closed hardware and blaming Linus and the kernel and X devs every time he has a problem.
    Yet again, half of this is caused by the nvidia stranglehold on the linux end user market. The only fix is to get more developers with AMD/ATI hardware to fix these bugs. Anyways, I believe that the casual user in any case is about the same. They will blame the wrong party that does not have anything to do with the issue. I recall that some major games on windows that where released in the last couple of years would fail terribly if ran on a system that was powered by anything but Intel and Nvidia.


    Originally posted by macemoneta View Post
    I just removed the last Nvidia card from my systems; now running ATI and Intel with Fedora 17 out-of-the-box drivers. I get flawless 1080p video, 3D desktop and adequate light gaming. When Nvidia considers updating their attitude, I'll reconsider my opinion and recommendations.
    Welcome to the Dark side. I'm fairly certain that things are probably going to be much better shortly considering all the excellent news I have seen recently on the AMD/ATI open source drivers front. Anyways, I have been using ATI/AMD for almost a decade, and generally speaking, I don't have problems upgrading every 5 to 6 years because I generaly see new features I want. Anyways, The open source drivers I see now are hundreds of times better than the nearly non-existend drivers 5 years ago.


    Originally posted by Anarchy View Post
    Basically, they gave us the middle finger. That's why I'll never buy laptop with discrete graphic card. Intel all the way. At least their drivers are open source.
    I would suggest re-examining the problem. The discrete graphics powered by AMD are getting much better, and are advancing tot he point to where a mostly usable driver is available on all fronts. I personally would recommend the AMD fusion series of laptops. The discrete cards found in these laptops allow for reasonable battery life ( 4 to 6 hours) when in use, and most of the time you can disable the dedicated card until the multiple graphics card support improves to the point that it is usable. Anyways, open source radeon drivers are rapidly advancing, and it's key to remember that the Open Source drivers generally see a lot more work done by end developers using documentation provided by AMD.


    Originally posted by ChrisXY View Post
    I don't get why we have switchable graphics in the first place.

    Did somebody really think "Our graphics cards drain the battery too much on idle so we should also put in another graphics chip from another company that can display stuff while we idle so we can power off our card..."?

    Why not try to build a modular graphics card where you could actually electrically turn off many parts so that the remaining parts still can provide basic 3d acceleration and render 2d stuff?
    As stated Before, Power savings. Personally I see 4 to 6 hours of battery life on a laptop powered by a radeon hd 6720g2 (crossfire of Radeon HD 6520 + Radeon HD 6650M). While I currently do not have crossfire support for this under linux, it is nice to be able to change which graphic card I am using depending on the task. I personally would like to be able to change between all three modes, but currently that is not an option yet. Howevre, the two main modes available now are more than enough, where When i want switch to a power savings mode i use the radeon hd 6520, and when i want a bit more performance, I use the radeon hd 6650M. However, the latest xrandr work might prove useful for both blobs.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
      I wish that was true, but no. I'm a HD4890 user, and from my experience, there are many games on Wine that just won't work properly on AMD hardware while NVIDIA users report that everything is just fine. Pretty much most of the issues I've had were with Unreal Engine 3 games - Mass Effects and Unreal Tournament 3, which don't even start properly. Older games work fine, though.
      That's because for quite a few years, Wine was written specifically towards the Nvidia drivers, bugs and all. Nvidia do have a good GL driver for the most part, but what you're seeing is a side effect of the Wine developers only targetting the Nvidia blob for a long time. That may have changed in the last few years, but it was true for a long time.

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      • #48
        Bullshit

        Nvidia PR department is doing what PR departments do, talk bullshit!

        They acknowledge nothing. All they do is an attempt at damage control by making a announcement claiming they're committed.

        Read between the lines, it says "fuck you, we're not gonna change anything, things gonna be the way it is".

        It's not just their graphics. Looking at Android sites, their Tegra soc is getting a really bad reputation too. It has the worst reputation of all socs.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by shinger View Post
          On my laptop, the Nvidia drivers STILL DONT work. Jockey doesn't see any Nvidia drivers and doing it manually doesn't work. Nvidia GT 520MX- Ubuntu 12.04 64 bit
          FUCK YOU NVIDIA!!
          When Optimus first came out, jockey would still offer nvidia blob drivers, and it would prevent X from starting (jockey finally got fixed in Precise and won't offer nvidia drivers on systems with intel driver loaded). Of course, some n00bs still insist on installing nvidia blob manually, and are shocked when it doesn't work...

          Official Optimus support could be a lot better, but don't blame nvidia because you can't follow instructions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bumblebee

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by peppepz View Post
            How is this a response to Linus' argument? He said "Nvidia sucks at open source" and they respond with "our closed source blob is good" (when it works, I'd add). The two matters are completely unrelated.
            They're not unrelated, since Nvidia's argument is that their driver strategy is for the Linux driver to share 90% of it's code with their Windows drivers - and that while this might not please kernel developers or open-source fans, it's the only reason they can provide Linux drivers at all.

            Sure, you might not agree with that reasoning, but I don't see why people are claiming it doesn't address Linus's argument. Because it does, if "reduce effort by sharing driver code" and "play nicely with kernel" are exclusive choices.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by patrik View Post
              So if the drivers where open they would stop giving same-day support and Windows parity?
              Yes, because the only reason they can provide same-day support and parity is the fact that almost all of the code is common between their Windows and Linux drivers. Their argument is that if they were developing "proper" open Linux drivers using standard kernel infrastructure, they'd lose that advantage, and couldn't provide the same level of support without a lot more effort.

              And face it, they don't care *that* much about the miniscule percentage of their target market than runs Linux. They'll support that percentage if it doesn't cost them too much, but that's all.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by RealNC View Post
                I think the "free & open" fanatics sometimes confuse the difference between a project and a product. NVidia offers products, not projects. They manage to make their products work within the confinements of a kernel that basically only supports in-kernel drivers. It's quite a challenge, but they come through with a product that works.
                It doesn't work with the rest of the Linux graphics stack ... the nVidia drivers (attempts to) replace the Linux graphics stack.

                Ultimately this is simply not feasible. It makes "upgrading" the Linux graphics stack (e.g. KMS, Gallium3D, Wayland, etc) impossible.

                It is not at all "fanatical" to want to be in control of your own software and the way it develops and progresses. Linux is a kernel, Linux does NOT belong to nVidia, graphics drivers are a part of what a kernel does.

                AMD have released programming specifications for their GPUs, programming specifications simply allow one to write code to interface to the GPU, they do NOT give away any IP in regards to how to make a GPU. It has done AMD no harm whatsoever to provide programming specifications for its GPUs.

                Programming specifications allow programmers to write code to interface to (in this case) hardware, so they are effectively an API. As Oracle found out recently in its case against Google, APIs are not even copyrightable.

                Linus is right.
                Last edited by hal2k1; 06-19-2012, 09:28 PM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
                  Yes, because the only reason they can provide same-day support and parity is the fact that almost all of the code is common between their Windows and Linux drivers. Their argument is that if they were developing "proper" open Linux drivers using standard kernel infrastructure, they'd lose that advantage, and couldn't provide the same level of support without a lot more effort.

                  And face it, they don't care *that* much about the miniscule percentage of their target market than runs Linux. They'll support that percentage if it doesn't cost them too much, but that's all.
                  Linux kernel programmers (those who write open source code for drivers for the Linux kernel) do not ask for nVidia's code. The ask for programming specifications, so that the Linux kernel programmers may write a proper Linux driver.

                  Nvidia are not Linux kernel experts, and they do not have the ability to write a proper Linux driver in any event. nVidia even go so far as to admit that the driver they provide for Linux is in fact a cludged Windows driver.

                  So Linux kernel programmers don't want nVidia to do any work for free, the Linux kernel programmers want to write the driver code for Linux (as they do for just about every other hardware), they just want to know the API for nVidias GPUs so that they may write such code. nVidia must surely have documentation on the API for their GPUs, and such information is not even copyrightable. It wouldn't cost nVidia anything. It would cost nVidia more to carry on with the farce of only providing the cludge of the Windows driver and open source wrapper as they currently do.
                  Last edited by hal2k1; 06-19-2012, 09:25 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by asdx
                    I don't understand Linus' reasoning, first he claims that he will use proprietary software and then he allows proprietary blobs in the kernel, Linux even starts shipping firmware blobs in the source tree.
                    Firmware blobs don't run in the kernel, they run directly on the hardware. Because they run directly on the hardware, they are the same blob for ANY OS. Firmware blobs do not impact the Linux kernel itself (if they crash, the crash the card, not the kernel) and the OEM will only fail to continue to support them when they fail to continue to support Windows. Firmware blobs do not constrain or dictate the capabilities of Linux itself.

                    Kernel loadable modules are a necessary evil. The do allow a loop-hole whereby the kernel-loadbale part only is open source, and this part then forms a wrapper around a binary blob which forms the bulk of the driver. This is a horrible cludge which everyone (even nVidia) would be far better off without.

                    What possible advantage does nVidia gain by refusing to publish the programming specifications (API) for its GPUs? Where is the profit in preventing Linux kernel programmers from writing a driver to work with your hardware? What possible harm does it do you if they do write an open source driver to your published API?

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Teho View Post
                      I don't see problem with the blob if it doesn't affect the developement of the kernel itself
                      It does affect the development of the kernel itself.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by asdx
                        Linus is a fucking idiot for allowing binary blobs and firmwares in the kernel, somebody fork the project and kick him out of the project. This is all his damn fucking fault. *sigh*
                        Once again, firmware blobs run on the cards directly, they are not part of the kernel. The kernel merely loads them on to the card. Becaue they run directly on the card, the firmware blobs are the same for Linux or Windows, so Linux support will not stop until Windows support does.

                        There would be no point in providing source for firmware blobs because gcc (or any other commonly available compiler) wouldn't be able to compile that source into the firmware blob anyway.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by DanL View Post
                          When Optimus first came out, jockey would still offer nvidia blob drivers, and it would prevent X from starting (jockey finally got fixed in Precise and won't offer nvidia drivers on systems with intel driver loaded). Of course, some n00bs still insist on installing nvidia blob manually, and are shocked when it doesn't work...

                          Official Optimus support could be a lot better, but don't blame nvidia because you can't follow instructions: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bumblebee
                          Official Optimus support on Linux is non-existant! Typical average Joe or Jane trying out Linux for the first time will curse in disgust at not being able to do simple functions out of the box like say, play tear-free video, play a 3D game etc. Seriously, what non-tech end user will even find something called 'bumblebee' let alone know what to do with it.

                          Originally posted by hal2k1 View Post
                          It doesn't work with the rest of the Linux graphics stack ... the nVidia drivers (attempts to) replace the Linux graphics stack.
                          Does the nVidia binary blob attempting to replace the whole Linux graphics stack somehow exclude them from contributing to open efforts in say XRandR and (perhaps more likely?) X.Org code to help facilitate GPU offloading and switching to enable support for Optimus? IMHO if nVidia refuse to open up and release specs on interfacing with their GPU, they at least need to contribute to projects to enable support for their products. They can't truly claim to be supporting Linux without enabling optimus to work seamlessly in a standard Linux distro setup with their recommended driver of choice - the nvidia binary blob - end of story.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by asdx
                            Linus is a fucking idiot for allowing binary blobs and firmwares in the kernel, somebody fork the project and kick him out of the project. This is all his damn fucking fault. *sigh*
                            no one is stopping you, go right ahead.

                            let me know how that works out for you

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by asdx
                              Sorry, no need, that was a misunderstanding, nevermind.

                              I'm never buying another nvidia card in my life again, they can seriously go fuck themselves. Enough is enough.
                              I think we get you, you've repeated it enough times now. lol

                              Personally, I WILL stick to buying nvidia GFX cards, as much as i would like to see them open some specs, or contribute more to projects they are involved with - it doesn't really matter, when at the end of the day, consistently for years and years they have provided me with a better experience (and support, in terms of frequent updates and fixes) than any of the alternatives... I'm not a windows user, but this is true for the systems i have/do run; BSD, linux and MacOSX...

                              I might not be saying that if i had went out and bought an laptop with optimus - but then again, i NEVER buy any hardware without making sure it is supported well in Linux, before hand.... I did that once a long time ago and never again - lesson learned.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Kamikaze View Post
                                Official Optimus support on Linux is non-existant! Typical average Joe or Jane trying out Linux for the first time will curse in disgust at not being able to do simple functions out of the box like say, play tear-free video, play a 3D game etc.
                                Open-source intel driver works out of the box on Optimus and is 100% approved by Linus...

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