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Linus Torvalds Calls NVIDIA The Worst Company Ever

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  • #91
    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    So now the LinuxTards are bringing down the nvnews.net site because the admin asked that the topic not be discussed on his forum?
    How are they 'bringing down the nvnews.net site' ??

    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    Seriously... is closed-source and proprietary software forbidden on this platform and if not, where is the tolerance?
    Obviously it's not 'forbidden' as there is indeed a working proprietary driver for Linux. As for tolerance, no one is preventing NVidia from maintaining their own proprietary driver, that doesn't mean they have to like, nor does it mean they have to keep quiet about it, nor does it mean they have to aid them. NVidia is selling HARDWARE, one would find it logical that hardware manufacturers will not setup artifical barriers for running the hardware they sell on whatever system the customer prefers but that is what we have when it comes to proprietary drivers where you are at the mercy of the hardware vendor to decide if your system of choice is 'worthy'.

    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    the Linux community demands "freedom" but at the same time, if a person exercises his freedom in a manner deemed heretical by the Church of FOSS then it's time to mount a crusade.
    What crusade? Saying they don't like the situation? If a person exercises his freedom of speech in a manner deemed herectical by you then they are 'church of foss', just how hypocritical can you be?

    Originally posted by johnc View Post
    But don't try to force your decision on the rest of us.
    How is anyone _forcing_ a decision on you in any way shape or form?

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by johnc View Post
      So now the LinuxTards are bringing down the nvnews.net site because the admin asked that the topic not be discussed on his forum? The irony is so rich... the Linux community demands "freedom" but at the same time, if a person exercises his freedom in a manner deemed heretical by the Church of FOSS then it's time to mount a crusade.

      Seriously... is closed-source and proprietary software forbidden on this platform and if not, where is the tolerance? If people don't like a piece of software, then they should exercise their freedom to avoid it. But don't try to force your decision on the rest of us.
      LinuxTard fascists, boohoo, Church of FOSS gave me a free OS, don't want to use my binary blobs *whine whine* my freedom is impinged boo hoo

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by entropy View Post
        The question ist too general IMHO.
        Of course, using closed-source software is perfectly fine with Linux when we talk about user-space software (not using GPL stuff).
        It's not that easy to tell in case of kernel-space drivers. AFAIK it's still not clear what the legal situation really is.
        That thin layer of glue code might just don't work as an excuse. So all those blobs potentially violate the kernel licence.
        It doesn't matter if it has been tolerated until now or that there has not been any court case so far concerning this issue.
        To support your case I can add that there are technical issues that makes kernel GPU glue drivers problematic. The kernel space to user space API works as a stability and security barrier. What most GPU kernel glue drivers does is move this barrier out to closed user space code. That makes all the hard work of stabilizing and securing the kernel useless. A chain is no stronger that it's weakest link.

        The thing is, the Linux idea is based on some rules the developers agree on - for simplicity lets say it's what the GPL contains.
        How about reversing your statement and say "If a user doesn't agree with that idea, he should user another OS".
        Or use an OS with a BSD licence or Windows, whatever. There are plenty alternatives.
        And the rules set out by developers also makes a lot of sense in a technical POV. They are required in order to make companies and enthusiasts cooperate. That is what makes Linux successful. Linus himself has clearly stated several times that the license was chosen from a technical stand point and not to save the whales. The freedom is kind of accidental, but a pretty nice bonus IMO.

        Either way Nvidia will loose and I feel sorry for all their hard working engineers. Nvidia does make awesome hardware. Linus middle finger was hopefully not aimed at them.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by entropy View Post
          The question ist too general IMHO.
          Of course, using closed-source software is perfectly fine with Linux when we talk about user-space software (not using GPL stuff).
          It's not that easy to tell in case of kernel-space drivers. AFAIK it's still not clear what the legal situation really is.
          That thin layer of glue code might just don't work as an excuse. So all those blobs potentially violate the kernel licence.
          It doesn't matter if it has been tolerated until now or that there has not been any court case so far concerning this issue.
          The GPL allows GPL applications to link to non-GPL shared libraries. So from a legal perspective it seems that a kernel hardware driver isn't too much of a step from that qualification.

          The thing is, the Linux idea is based on some rules the developers agree on - for simplicity lets say it's what the GPL contains.
          How about reversing your statement and say "If a user doesn't agree with that idea, he should user another OS".
          Or use an OS with a BSD licence or Windows, whatever. There are plenty alternatives.
          And I agree with that statement. If for some reason I can't use a particular piece of hardware that I want to use on some OS, that OS gets wiped from my hard drive and I use an alternative that "just works". And the fact is, that's where the consumer's preference has been: operating systems where their hardware works out of the box.

          Linux is at best a decent operating system associated with a mediocre application stack and an excellent total cost of ownership. It's precisely the latter of the three that has caused it to be popular in some markets. Linux was far, far inferior to Solaris in the server space, but its associated cost advantages (especially with commodity hardware) made it preferable. On the desktop, Linux is a failure and mediocre in every way. And if Google wanted to fess up the investment, they could easily convert Android over to a BSD or something else and have a mobile OS that is just as technologically capable as Linux if not superior. Android is largely successful because it's not beholden to GPL insanity and FOSS fanatics.

          It took YEARS for many commercial entities to dip their toes into the Linux pool after being scared away by the fanatics. It's kind of getting tiring hearing all of the complaints about how hardware X isn't supported in Linux and software company Y won't support Linux and etc., etc., etc. Maybe it's time to look inside and see if there's anything inherent in the platform that makes it unattractive to a wide swath of businesses. Because if there is, then that makes Linux based around an inferior philosophy with limited potential. (Demonstrably proven in the desktop space.)

          JMO of course.

          There's no doubt that there are people out there that would love to kill proprietary drivers. I love Linux of course but if I couldn't use my NVIDIA video driver for whatever reason, it gets wiped from my disk and I go with the 99% of the world that actually uses their computers as a means to an end.

          Comment


          • #95
            don't think of non-free/closed-sourced/proprietary vs free/open-sourced/mine , think of it as magic vs science

            gpu's are complicated beasts, to write a good open driver one needs to know how such a thing works

            slightly off topic but has anyone got the hdmi audio working on an amd e-350 apu yet using the radeon driver?( oh wait no thats amd isn't it nvm )

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              Linux is at best a decent operating system
              Compared to what? Also it's a kernel.

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              And if Google wanted to fess up the investment, they could easily convert Android over to a BSD or something else and have a mobile OS that is just as technologically capable as Linux if not superior.
              Yeah, the reason Linux is huge in servers, dominates super computing and embedded is because companies 'could easily use anything else' which would be 'just as technologically capable if not superior'. Really?

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              Android is largely successful because it's not beholden to GPL insanity and FOSS fanatics.
              All the FOSS and GPL attacking betrays you as just another anti-gpl troll.

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              And the fact is, that's where the consumer's preference has been: operating systems where their hardware works out of the box.
              Linux supports more hardware out-of-the-box than Windows does, which in turn is due to all the open source drivers available in the kernel.

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              It took YEARS for many commercial entities to dip their toes into the Linux pool after being scared away by the fanatics.
              Bullshit, show me anything supporting this statement, if this was even remotely true then BSD would be huge by now instead of slowly fading into obscurity.

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              Maybe it's time to look inside and see if there's anything inherent in the platform that makes it unattractive to a wide swath of businesses.
              Obviously not since businesses are extremely attracted to Linux, what is this 'wide swath of businesses' which you speak of?

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              I love Linux of course
              LOL

              Originally posted by johnc View Post
              but if I couldn't use my NVIDIA video driver for whatever reason, it gets wiped from my disk and I go with the 99% of the world that actually uses their computers as a means to an end.
              Oh no! And how on earth would you be prevented from using 'your' NVIDIA driver?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                Yeah, the reason Linux is huge in servers, dominates super computing and embedded is because companies 'could easily use anything else' which would be 'just as technologically capable if not superior'. Really?
                Even with stalled development Solaris is pretty much superior to Linux in many server scenarios. The SPARC hardware and support contracts aren't exactly cheap though and thus don't necessarily make it a smart choice for businesses.

                Does Linux even have feature parity with ZFS yet? Nope. It's only been seven years now. And the ZFS code is 100% open source but since the licenses are incompatible, here we are with objectively inferior file systems in Linux.

                Linux took off in the server space because it was free and ran on x86. That's just a fact. It had nothing to do with feature sets or FOSS principles.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Ohh, nVIDIA, your fans really love you

                  Some nvidia "fans" who were "too happy" with complete lack of divers for Nvidia Optimus for Linux have even created the following funny site to show their respect to Nvidia: http://drivers-for-optimus.enodev.org/

                  For those not familiar with Russian, approximate translation of (foul language!) text to English could be like that:

                  There are no fucking drivers!
                  Put this shit to garbage bin.

                  Though corrected nvidia logo picture is what actually delivers.
                  Seriously. Nvidia should change their logo! When hardware comes without drivers and documentation it's exactly like that!
                  Last edited by 0xBADCODE; 06-18-2012, 01:54 PM. Reason: Seriously. Nvidia should change their logo :)

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by johnc View Post
                    Does Linux even have feature parity with ZFS yet? Nope.
                    Linux can serve most of real-world tasks, one way or another. It do not have to emulate ZFS (Solaris, BSD, ...) features exactly to do this. Linux can do volume management, raid levels and whatever. One way or another. And ZFS fans probably would find BTRFS quite cool thing at some point.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by johnc View Post
                      Even with stalled development Solaris is pretty much superior to Linux in many server scenarios. The SPARC hardware and support contracts aren't exactly cheap though and thus don't necessarily make it a smart choice for businesses.
                      'Big iron' is consistently losing ground to Linux and Windows in the server space so obviously what they offer in performance is found not being worth the comparative costs.

                      Originally posted by johnc View Post
                      And the ZFS code is 100% open source but since the licenses are incompatible, here we are with objectively inferior file systems in Linux.
                      It was deliberately licenced to be incompatible with Linux (GPL) as they were competing with Linux and obviously didn't want to give away the competitive advantage ZFS offered.

                      Originally posted by johnc View Post
                      Linux took off in the server space because it was free and ran on x86. That's just a fact. It had nothing to do with feature sets or FOSS principles.
                      The BSD's are also free and runs on x86, yet Linux dominates in the server space while the BSD's hardly register by comparison, despite your bullshit about how -'It took YEARS for many commercial entities to dip their toes into the Linux pool after being scared away by the fanatics.'.

                      Linux IS an extremely performant OS as proven by it being widely used in high performance computing (HPC), supercomputers/computing clusters (totally dominates here). The Linux devs take great pride in being performant as evident in this very video we are discussing were Linus goes on about an example of how Linux's pathname-lookup is faster than on anything else which was something the devs were micro-optimizing a while back to minimize cache misses while also making sure it scales perfectly.

                      Comment


                      • I dunno what Linus is upset about, I have not watched the video yet. However the work I've done with OpenGL was done on Linux using NV card + NV proprietary driver and I had no problems. The work I've done with CUDA was on Linux and it worked very well indeed. I hope a pissing match does not develop between Linus and Jen Hsun, because I like NV on Linux.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by 0xBADCODE View Post
                          Some nvidia "fans" who were "too happy" with complete lack of divers for Nvidia Optimus for Linux have even created the following funny site to show their respect to Nvidia: http://drivers-for-optimus.enodev.org/
                          -> Драйверов блядь нет!

                          Hahaha! Almost fell off my chair!!

                          Comment


                          • "Init is too fancy, we only need a root shell"

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
                              The BSD's are also free and runs on x86, yet Linux dominates in the server space while the BSD's hardly register by comparison, despite your bullshit about how -'It took YEARS for many commercial entities to dip their toes into the Linux pool after being scared away by the fanatics.'.

                              Linux IS an extremely performant OS as proven by it being widely used in high performance computing (HPC), supercomputers/computing clusters (totally dominates here). The Linux devs take great pride in being performant as evident in this very video we are discussing were Linus goes on about an example of how Linux's pathname-lookup is faster than on anything else which was something the devs were micro-optimizing a while back to minimize cache misses while also making sure it scales perfectly.
                              I think Linus is over-esteeming himself though.

                              Ehhhh... Not sure that Linux "dominates" in the server space (assuming that "majority" doesn't translate to "dominate", and even then "majority" is questionable depending on which stats one looks at). Depends on the server type I guess. Yes, the BSDs are free and the BSDs had a large segment of the UNIX-like server market for quite awhile there, especially the web server market. But that was before the days of godaddy.com and $10/mo hosting fees. I'm not sure what that looks like now. But that wasn't the point I was making with my statement that you quoted, where I intended to point out that consumer-oriented software and hardware were, for a long time, not supported on Linux. I remember the days where "if it's not open source, GTFOff my system" were quite commonplace. I'm hoping that by now that mentality makes up a small minority of the Linux community. But it's somewhat prevalent on the forums here.

                              Linux does dominate the HPC sector... of which some of those systems are hooked into NVIDIA GPUs driven by those awfully horrible NVIDIA drivers.

                              On the desktop -- one of the biggest OS markets -- obviously Linux is practically non-existent. That's not by accident.

                              Within the past year Linux has taken a small majority in the smartphone market, completely driven by Android which for quite a long time was maligned in the Linux community because Google wasn't a team player. Now that Android is #1, the Linux community wants to brag about Android. Not to mention that Android's popularity would have been completely impossible if it weren't for the proprietary, closed-source binary blobs that people on this website are so frequent to deem the equivalent of Satan's spawn.

                              Linus was quick to brag about daily Android activations but didn't take the time to mention that driving many of those Android sales is that great Tegra SoC... made by "The Worst Company Ever".

                              And without Android Linux would be, again, practically non-existent in the mobile space... as it was just a short couple of years ago.

                              So personally I think Linus came off as a real childish turd. NVIDIA has helped and supported Linux plenty, in its own way, and much more than most companies out there have.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by hoohoo View Post
                                I dunno what Linus is upset about, I have not watched the video yet. However the work I've done with OpenGL was done on Linux using NV card + NV proprietary driver and I had no problems. The work I've done with CUDA was on Linux and it worked very well indeed. I hope a pissing match does not develop between Linus and Jen Hsun, because I like NV on Linux.
                                "Working with NVidia" is very different than "using NVidia's product".

                                Seeing if an OpenGL app works is very different than trying to maintain a kernel, making updates, debugging it, getting in contact with NVidia developers, etc.

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