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Shuttleworth Challenged Over Mir Comments

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  • #61
    Originally posted by theghost View Post
    Nobody cares what Mark writes, it's just a little P.R. for Mir, which is not final yet.
    If that was the case nobody would be bothered. The problem is that a lot of people do care what Mark writes. He is the leader of the largest Linux community right now, and what he says is believed and repeated by many Ubuntu fans. It has happened before when Mark has spread lies like this.

    Originally posted by theghost View Post
    But why must everyone, especially the KDE devs, crawl out from under their rock and state their opinion.
    Because for some reason Mark seems to direct a lot of trouble KDE's way. It has happened before with his lies about kwin development, and this comment as well appear to be directed at KDE.

    Originally posted by theghost View Post
    And before Seigo et al. crawl out of their cave to prove something, they should get their own shit together.
    Just look at the Vivaldi tablet and Plasma Active...Where is it ?
    First, this isn't about technology, it is about telling lies about other communities.

    Second, plasma active is available and has been for a while. And the QA model of Vivaldi has already shipped.

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    • #62
      I think Canonical needs to hire some PR person whose job description is to censor/edit everything Mark says.

      The job title would be "CEO Babysitter".

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      • #63
        Originally posted by dee. View Post
        I think Canonical needs to hire some PR person whose job description is to censor/edit everything Mark says.

        The job title would be "CEO Babysitter".
        Only Mark isn't the CEO of Canonical, Jane Silber is.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          I think Canonical needs to hire some PR person whose job description is to censor/edit everything Mark says.

          The job title would be "CEO Babysitter".

          Mark is the founder of Canonical, a PRIVATE company , thus majority share holder, so anyone appointed as CEO COO or whatever corporate title given still answers to Mark . So why would they hire someone to censor the major shareholder/founder/director of a company.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by johnc View Post
            Apparently the guy took quite an uneducated swipe at the Tea Party. I didn't get to see the original comments because he wisely removed them... but what is with people who get upset over "name calling" and being "insulted" and then go on to essentially call the Tea Party a bunch of assholes?
            So where did he call the Tea Party such a word as "assholes"? Who is being "uneducated" now? I guess he only equated the extremely ideologically biased, factual resistant and conflict seeking characteristics of (a significant fraction of) both groups.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
              So why would they hire someone to censor the major shareholder/founder/director of a company.
              To keep him from damaging the reputation of the company by saying absurdly stupid things.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                To keep him from damaging the reputation of the company by saying absurdly stupid things.
                It's his company. Nobody else has power over it, or him.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by dee. View Post
                  To keep him from damaging the reputation of the company by saying absurdly stupid things.
                  Since it's HIS PRIVATE company he can actually say anything he likes. Since majority shareholder he would only ever be damaging his own potential earnings. As a director/founder/shareholder of a company myself ,if one the company employees, CEO or not, was absurd enough to hire someone, who's job description is simply damage control of my personal or corporate announcements on my blog or social networks,they would be fired.

                  Whilst his comments only fuel the fire your suggestion is never going to happen.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by synaptix View Post
                    Anyone remember Marks little comment here:
                    http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551



                    This was before Steve Job's spirit indwelled himself in Mark's heart .

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Veto View Post
                      So where did he call the Tea Party such a word as "assholes"? Who is being "uneducated" now? I guess he only equated the extremely ideologically biased, factual resistant and conflict seeking characteristics of (a significant fraction of) both groups.
                      Extremely ideologically biased, factual resistant and conflict seeking groups. Are you describing BO$$?

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mark Shuttleworth
                        Mir is really important work. When lots of competitors attack a project on purely political grounds, you have to wonder what THEIR agenda is. At least we know now who belongs to the Open Source Tea Party And to put all the hue and cry into context: Mir is relevant for approximately 1% of all developers, just those who think about shell development. Every app developer will consume Mir through their toolkit. By contrast, those same outraged individuals have NIH’d just about every important piece of the stack they can get their hands on… most notably SystemD, which is hugely invasive and hardly justified. What closely to see how competitors to Canonical torture the English language in their efforts to justify how those toolkits should support Windows but not Mir. But we’ll get it done, and it will be amazing.

                        I can tell you what the agenda of the Mir team is: speed, quality, reliability, efficiency
                        Mark, once it was established that Mir holds no technical advantage over Wayland - after you failed to fulfill on your public Wayland promise, I could only deduce that the very reason for Mir's existence is purely political/ego-driven.

                        It really hurts when someone as prominent as yourself makes promises and a couple of years later breaks them. It hurts when division of labor is created by people with deeper pockets such as yourself, despite working toward a common goal all the while on the backs of others. The analogies between upstart/systemd only mildly apply here, most of those things are backend things, invisible to the end user. The gravity of both of these predicaments is radically different - the future of the Linux desktop is being created here. I don't remember nearly as much uproar over systemd/upstart as this.

                        This is why people are pissed off, not because you want to create your Mir display server, which you're free to do. They feel ripped off and cheated. And you never to this day said, "I'm sorry I fucked up". You don't even have to clean up the mess you made. Wayland will do that for you. But the least you could have done is issue a public apology for being a turncoat.

                        The entire reason you still can't get off it about Wayland and all this lame name calling is because you just can't admit you screwed the pooch just this once. It's all about you, yourself and Mark here, and heaven's forbid if you just said "I'm sorry" if for nothing else, to just calm the bad spirits on here and elsewhere (i.e. G+). You too will feel better about yourself once you've done it as you will be able to quit the constant jabbing ("Wayland is a repeat of X-Windows mistakes", and this latest "Wayland is the Tea-party"), save face and focus 100% on finishing Mir instead of bashing Wayland.

                        Most people here could care less if Mir becomes the most used, most stellar piece of software for the next 2 decades on the Linux, pardon, Ubuntu desktop..... They do however care to have you be an authentic human being, and do what's right...
                        Last edited by MartinN; 10-21-2013, 03:04 AM.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by MartinN View Post
                          It really hurts when someone as prominent as yourself makes promises and a couple of years later breaks them. It hurts when division of labor is created by people with deeper pockets such as yourself, despite working toward a common goal all the while on the backs of others. The analogies between upstart/systemd only mildly apply here, most of those things are backend things, invisible to the end user. The gravity of both of these predicaments is radically different - the future of the Linux desktop is being created here. I don't remember nearly as much uproar over systemd/upstart as this.

                          This is why people are pissed off, not because you want to create your Mir display server, which you're free to do. They feel ripped off and cheated. And you never to this day said, "I'm sorry I fucked up". You don't even have to clean up the mess you made. Wayland will do that for you. But the least you could have done is issue a public apology for being a turncoat.
                          Come on, "people are angry because something was promised years ago"...
                          And not every bold statement is directed towards KDE. KDE is not the center of the OSS universe (anymore). Even if they still think they are. In the past years they lost a lot of creditibility with their KDE3 / 4 transition.

                          A true project would stfu and get their own stuff together instead of whining the whole day that someone promised sth. or someone called someone the "tea party". It would be the best to open up a a huge Free Software Kindergarten to put all OSS divas out there. Then they can do the mud slinging there...

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by theghost View Post
                            A true project would stfu and get their own stuff together instead of whining the whole day that someone promised sth.
                            Right, so why isn't Canonical doing that? Why does the Glorious Leader of Canonical need to sling mud at others, throw around FUD and paranoid accusations instead of getting their own stuff together?

                            Mark is now claiming that Wayland is made as an attempt to "prevent Canonical from succeeding". There's this huge persecution complex going on with some Canonical people, this attitude that if you don't like what they do then you're a bully or an elitist wanting Linux to be difficult to use, or whatever fallacious strawman argument Mark comes up with next. Why don't they just focus on doing their thing, instead of playing these silly word games and spreading lies?

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by theghost View Post
                              And KDE could need more love too, it has some real flaws since years.
                              Thankfully, Wayland has allowed them to apply the Cascade of Attention-Deficit Teenagers development methodology to KDE development - rather than fixing bugs, they can just say it's probably X's fault so it's not worth the effort. I saw this happen with an obnoxious kwin bug that turned out to have a trivial one-line fix; the main developer refused to even investigate the bug report citing this argument. Then when Wayland finally does come out they can tell anyone that complains about bugs that they should just use X and older KDE versions until they're polished out (though of course, those older versions will also be in an awful state because the developers spent all their time on shiny new stuff).

                              Meanwhile, plasma-desktop segfaults every half hour and KDE is a nightmare to use.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by MartinN View Post
                                I could only deduce that the very reason for Mir's existence is purely political/ego-driven.
                                I think it was mostly a business decision. At the beginning, they probably thought that there were technical reasons, too. But still, it was most likely a business decision.

                                The reasons are simple:

                                1) Working _with_ the community on a project is slow and tedious. There are too many egos involved which lead to endless discussions. Also the main focus of a community project is not speed of development but a clean architecture. That's why Google simply forked the Linux kernel for Android, instead of sending in patches. They knew they had to take some shortcuts and didn't want to waste time in endless discussions. Sure, Ubuntu could have forked Wayland, like Google did with the kernel but the shitstorm would have been the same. Also, at that time, they probably still thought that Wayland had some technical problems.

                                2) Having full control over a project is a big business advantage, once you have a running architecture.

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