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Ubuntu 14.04 Codename Revealed, Mir Haters Attacked

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  • #31
    Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
    What happens when you like both Mir and the fundamentals of the Tea Party? The Tea Party is supposed to be about promoting libertarianism - freedom of choice without burden from those that want to tax you for the inabilities of others, whilst still holding the charitable outcomes.

    I think the problem is there is only so much to go around, and people have got defensive on their projects when Canonical stepped out and proclaimed the virtues of Mir project, like Wayland team. They probably said to themselves, hey why not help us rather than start a new project...
    Libertarianism isn't about freedom of choice, it's about freedom to get screwed and have no recourse, hence why it was created by a group of bankers in the 1950's.

    And if you want to bring Ayn Rand into it, remember, her idol was the child murderer William Edward Hickman, whom she referred to as "Superman" due to his complete lack of empathy and based John Galt on him.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by wargames View Post
      He probably works form M$. M$ knows the only thing that can "break" Linux is its fragmentation. I'm sure they spend a lot of money trying to kill Linux. They want us to use the CIA/NSA supported M$ Windows 8.1.
      That's paranoid. I don't think they care about the unsuccessful desktop Linux anymore, since they don't target the desktop as their primary platform anymore, as Metro shows. If they want to break something, that's Android.

      Originally posted by j2723 View Post
      Wow... has Canonical really sunk this low? Mark is accusing others of the NIH Syndrome when in fact Mir is the result of NIH (Wayland was released/worked on earlier than Mir, http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551).
      Nope, Mark is just going to the common place of pointing out someone else also did wrong to make people think it's better that way. Also, he did attack only the companies (I don't know if it's right, but it's understandable to think developers paid by a company are actually representing such company, which is what he's doing) who pointed out the flaws on Mir, not everyone else (anyway, he is lying every time he says it's "only on political ground").

      Originally posted by XorEaxEax View Post
      It depends on how much you trust the entity which requires CLA's, personally I don't really trust Canonical not to turn around and use their sole copyright to allow proprietary extensions to Mir or something similar, I do however feel very confident that a organisation like FSF won't do anything like that as they have been unwavering in their positions regarding free software for ages, which of course is also why they exist to begin with.
      The fact Canonical doesn't asks for copyright, but for the right to sublicense, should make it clear what the intention is.

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      • #33
        Tahdy-da

        If I recall correctly, Canonical's code names have quickly settled on a single word...

        For this 14.04 release I suggest that single identifying nomer to be Tardy!


        See: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tardy


        Nothing about the quarrelling lunatic fringes here, sorry...

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        • #34
          Mir is really important work. When lots of competitors attack a project on purely political grounds, you have to wonder what THEIR agenda is.
          I think the whole background of discussion about Mir misses an important point. Canonical seems to be in financial trouble now: http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/...nonical-ubuntu
          Their whole rush and erratic behavior with Mir rollout and disregarding the global community can stem from the interest to monetize something fast. And they placed the bet on mobile. While using Wayland would be a good thing to do, that required more communication from them, and they decided to make things in fast half cooked way to have full control over the process and to avoid communication overhead. Whether that would bring them to the goal faster, remains to be seen. But at least it explains why they didn't care about creating this huge mess with Mir.
          Last edited by shmerl; 10-18-2013, 12:55 PM.

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          • #35
            ...Every app developer will consume Mir through their toolkit...
            Exactly which toolkits are/will be compatible with Mir?

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            • #36
              From the Wired article:
              while Ubuntu itself is open source, Canonical doesn't make the source code for all of its software freely available.
              Well, that answers one of the questions in this thread.

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              • #37
                lol @ Canonical

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by r_a_trip View Post
                  As always Mark S. is handling the PR superbly... NOT!

                  Can someone please explain to me what is so bad about MIR. I've looked at it and it looks like a nice improvement. I don't know why everyone bashes it. I'm not trying to defend it, I'm just looking to get educated about what the problem with it is. I mean, there isn't anything else to use righT? There's Weston but that's just a reference thing and not even fully operational display server.

                  Wayland is a protocol. Why is it bad to have MIR display server based on the protocol. Thanks.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by tjac View Post
                    Can someone please explain to me what is so bad about MIR. I've looked at it and it looks like a nice improvement. I don't know why everyone bashes it. I'm not trying to defend it, I'm just looking to get educated about what the problem with it is. I mean, there isn't anything else to use righT? There's Weston but that's just a reference thing and not even fully operational display server.

                    Wayland is a protocol. Why is it bad to have MIR display server based on the protocol. Thanks.
                    The main problem with Mir is duplication of effort and more burden on UI toolkits and drivers developers in supporting yet another display server. When everyone was planning on shifting from X.org to Wayland, came along Canonical and dropped Mir on their heads. The reason? Just for the sake of it, not really any valid technical reasons. So you can easily understand why people feel upset by this diversion.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by tjac View Post
                      Can someone please explain to me what is so bad about MIR. I've looked at it and it looks like a nice improvement. I don't know why everyone bashes it. I'm not trying to defend it, I'm just looking to get educated about what the problem with it is. I mean, there isn't anything else to use righT? There's Weston but that's just a reference thing and not even fully operational display server.

                      Wayland is a protocol. Why is it bad to have MIR display server based on the protocol. Thanks.
                      The problem is MIR is intentionally incompatible with the Wayland protocol, duplicating efforts both on the display infrastructure side and in the toolkit and driver implementation side. In the drivers, while it's remain to be seen, it might not be as much a problem. There are other, real world compositors, aside of Weston. One of them is GNOME-Shell, there is also KWin, I believe, then E18 and E19, and I think that's all there are currently. I believe nobody would oppose to MIR if it'd work as a Wayland compositor, instead as their own incompatible thing.

                      EDIT: Well, actually, there will always be haters and fanboys, and those would probably whine even if it were a Wayland compositor instead of something incompatible with everyone else. But the point is there are actual arguments to be worried.
                      Last edited by mrugiero; 10-18-2013, 01:28 PM.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tjac View Post
                        Can someone please explain to me what is so bad about MIR. I've looked at it and it looks like a nice improvement. I don't know why everyone bashes it. I'm not trying to defend it, I'm just looking to get educated about what the problem with it is. I mean, there isn't anything else to use righT? There's Weston but that's just a reference thing and not even fully operational display server.

                        Wayland is a protocol. Why is it bad to have MIR display server based on the protocol. Thanks.
                        The idea with Wayland is making the already available compositors the "display servers", like KWin in KDE and Mutter in GNOME. Mir wouldn't be a problem at all if it used the Wayland protocol, but it doesn't. It uses its own.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by tjac View Post
                          Wayland is a protocol. Why is it bad to have MIR display server based on the protocol. Thanks.
                          Mir isn't based on the Wayland protocol. It doesn't really even have a protocol (not a stable one at least), and it is completely incompatible with Wayland in pretty much every way that matters.

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                          • #43
                            Anyway, after comments like these from the head of Canonical I would suspect any chance of reconciliation that may have remained is now gone.

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                            • #44
                              Open letter to M.S., the new MS

                              Originally posted by Marky Mark McShuttle
                              Mir is really important work. When lots of competitors attack a project on purely political grounds, you have to wonder what THEIR agenda is.
                              When a leader of a company such as Canonical makes statements like this, it reeks of ideological warfare. You are making a strawman argument, twisting the views of your opposition to suit your rhetoric. This is pages from the book of Jobs. It's a PR move, it's designed to rile up your followers, and we get to hear more enthusiastic Ubuntu fans picking up the torch and parroting your inaccurate, inane arguments accross forums.

                              The arguments made against Mir are not political. There are some very good arguments made, most notably, that it is causing fragmentation of the Linux ecosystem at a very fundamental level, something that goes beyond different Desktop Environments. Even with all the variation in Linux distributions, developers have always been able to count on a common display server, X, and assume it to be used on any distro. With Wayland, the transition would have been painless, since Wayland would have provided XWayland, and developers could depend on the existence of either X or Wayland. Now, that isn't the case - they can still only depend on X, the lowest common denominator - which slows down the evolution of desktop Linux overall.

                              In fact, if anything is a political move, it's Mir. It provides no benefit whatsoever compared to Wayland. Any claimed benefits against Wayland have been debunked. So it's obvious there's some other reason. Maybe Canonical is trying to do a powergrab, to force everyone to use their software that they control, instead of something developed collaboratively. Maybe Canonical wants to force other distros to follow Canonical's way of doing things.

                              But you don't have to take it from me. Listen to the words of Past Mark Shuttleworth:

                              Originally posted by Mark Shuttleworth, 2010
                              we evaluated the cost of building a new display manager, informed by the lessons learned in Wayland. We came to the conclusion that any such effort would only create a hard split in the world which wasnt worth the cost of having done it. There are issues with Wayland, but they seem to be solvable, wed rather be part of solving them than chasing a better alternative.
                              What changed since then? Canonical's policies? Secret deal with Microsoft? Who knows, but the reason sure isn't technical, as everyone can already see that Mir offers nothing beyond what Wayland offers, maybe less.

                              Originally posted by Mark Shittleworth
                              At least we know now who belongs to the Open Source Tea Party And to put all the hue and cry into context: Mir is relevant for approximately 1% of all developers, just those who think about shell development. Every app developer will consume Mir through their toolkit. By contrast, those same outraged individuals have NIHd just about every important piece of the stack they can get their hands on most notably SystemD, which is hugely invasive and hardly justified. What closely to see how competitors to Canonical torture the English language in their efforts to justify how those toolkits should support Windows but not Mir. But well get it done, and it will be amazing.
                              Name calling, Mark? Really? This is how a leader should behave? Like a spoiled kid throwing a tantrum, when people don't agree with him? That's just sad.

                              Sorry, but every app developer will not use toolkits. Games, applications like XBMC, closed source software ported from other operating systems... many of these are unable or unwilling to use any of the available toolkits. Without Mir, these programs could easily be written for Wayland, and everyone - including Canonical - would be happy. But now, the developers of these programs face a choice: support the single biggest distro (plurality), or pretty much all the rest (majority) - or just default to X, which is supported on both.

                              I can tell you what the agenda of the Mir team is: speed, quality, reliability, efficiency. Thats it. From what Ive seen on the smartphone, Mir is going to be a huge leap forward for gaming performance, battery life and next-generation display capabilities. So thank you for the many contributions we had to Mir, and to everyone who is testing it in more challenging environments than the smartphone. Im enjoying it on my laptop and loving the gaming benchmarks for native Mir. So to that team, and the broader community who are helping test and refine Mir, thank you.
                              None of those things are yet evident. All we've seen so far is a buggy display server, whose developers are just piggybacking on the work done by Wayland developers. Also none of those things are things that Wayland lacks. Therefore none of them are good reasons to use Mir, none of them are a good reason to "create a hard split in the world".

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                              • #45
                                Story about desperate man

                                I'll tell you a story about Desperate man, it's all truth and it's all lie.
                                Listen and learn.

                                Somewhere at the Isle of Animal there lived a man. It was very rich man. He had the gift to make money a he used it. So he made many money. With those money he bought big house and nice car. He bough yacht and a second house. Then he bought a plane and a third house. Odly, he was not satisfied.

                                Or not. He was satisfied, but not with making money, he was satisfied with watching progress. This man took his money and bought very expansive trip to space. Why? Because he had money and because he wanted to help space travel bussiness with his money. Or that is, what he says.

                                So, this man likes technology very much. This man want to see it's progress. He and group of his followers made a new, powerfull and beatiful bleeding edge free operating system. Ok, it was not so nice. System had many errors, but many people were working to make it better. Some were following the man, for his money, others, because they liked what he said. And some of them were free people, who liked freedom in this project. And man liked freedom too, or that was, what he said. Man's system was growing and he needed to upgrade graphical user interface, so he talked to free people group, called Giant, which was programming graphical interface for his Operating System using. And he asked them to make their graphical interface better, or different. They heared him, but said no. They were free to do, what they want. And they didn't want do, what somebody other have said they should do. They choosed themselfs what they want. They were free.

                                Ok then, said man, they don't want to make it, I make my followers do it. And he used his influence and his large piles of money to make another graphical interface and named it, after this inicident, Disunity. This new graphical interface split free people. Part loved it, because its simplicity and part hated it, because it was full of bugs and thus not so beatiful as the man said. And they hated it because other reasons, or that was, what they said.

                                Time has come to another upgrade of operating system. Optimized graphical server was needed. Man was looking forward to project called Waywater. That was another project free people were building and something that man needed. He was looking at their work for some time before he realized, that he needed something slightly different.

                                He wanted to ask free people, to do it. To change their project to his project. But they never cooperate as it was with Giants. And somewhere inside he knew. He knew that they will never do, what he want. Because they were free. And free people do only what they want. They don't do what want other people.
                                But Waywater was free project and free people said, if not forthright, you can use our project, change it and make it yours. So this done this. He taked their project, modified it to his taste and named this graphical server War!

                                And free people didn't like it. They yelled: You are thief! You are traitor!

                                The man was rich, the man liked his project. The man was trying to be polite, but who can be polite, when he is angry? Man has not yelled, he just talked and smiled. But his words were attacking free people and that made them angry. He liked his project, but did he like free people? He was becoming more and more desperate to show himself to have success, to make his project more succesful, so he can't hear hating yells of free people. So he can only hear yells of love from his followers.

                                It is all lie. And it is all truth. It is where story of Desperate man ends and I have question for You:
                                Did you learn from the man?
                                Where did the man do the mistake?
                                Did you learn from free people?
                                Did free people make mistakes too?

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