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Mir Was Briefly Talked About This Week At XDC2013

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
    Yes, I'm aware, I pointed that out in another thread, actually. This doesn't change my correction to the post I quoted: the call to use server side allocations was made thinking in improving things for platforms where mesa is not relevant.
    They are stuck with mesa on the desktop if they want to use open drivers. Of course they could elect not to use those drivers, but they'd be the only distro to do that, to my knowledge, but, they certainly could.
    In the mobile space they clearly are going to use the blobs (though they don't HAVE to, as open drivers for mali-400 and adreno 2xx-3xx exist, but I admit these aren't ready to replace the blobs).
    The main point of my post was that wayland is able to do serverside allocation which negates an "advantage" for mir.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by liam View Post
      wayland is able to do serverside allocation which negates an "advantage" for mir.
      What part of "by us, for us" has anything to do with advantages

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      • #18
        Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
        Yes, I'm aware, I pointed that out in another thread, actually. This doesn't change my correction to the post I quoted: the call to use server side allocations was made thinking in improving things for platforms where mesa is not relevant.
        So in other words they are making life hard on their core platform on hopes that they might be able to break into a platform they currently have zero presence in? Rather than just using something that work fine on both?

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        • #19
          By us, for us
          Wow, how do I love Canonicals attitude towards the commutiy!!

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          • #20
            Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
            So in other words they are making life hard on their core platform on hopes that they might be able to break into a platform they currently have zero presence in? Rather than just using something that work fine on both?
            Yes, I think that would be a proper description of the situation.

            Originally posted by liam View Post
            They are stuck with mesa on the desktop if they want to use open drivers. Of course they could elect not to use those drivers, but they'd be the only distro to do that, to my knowledge, but, they certainly could.
            In the mobile space they clearly are going to use the blobs (though they don't HAVE to, as open drivers for mali-400 and adreno 2xx-3xx exist, but I admit these aren't ready to replace the blobs).
            The main point of my post was that wayland is able to do serverside allocation which negates an "advantage" for mir.
            Again, I'm only saying they didn't paid attention to the desktop when making that decision. I know they are stuck with mesa on the desktop. I also believe they expected everyone to go along with their choices, so they didn't care how mesa currently handles it, they probably expected them to change to whatever they choose, or to at least provide an option to work the way they want.

            Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
            What part of "by us, for us" has anything to do with advantages
            Are you serious? Would you invest time and money in making another solution for the same problem, having another one for free, just to be able to say it's "by me, for me"? I think they should expect to take some advantage of it, otherwise they are being utterly stupid.
            But yeah, the point is to be able to exactly control what it can do, so that's probably the perceived advantage, they probably think this way it can have exactly the features they need, which is a possibility. IMO, their needs are pretty much the same as the needs of every other DE, so it will have just around the same features any compositor on Wayland has, and if that happens then there is no advantage on the "by us, for us" approach.

            On the point of your post, it wasn't clear at first, I think. Again, I'm aware Wayland can do that, and I mentioned that when I said I see no technical reasons for Mir on several threads already, so I'm not really sure what we are arguing about.
            Last edited by mrugiero; 09-27-2013, 11:42 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
              Again, I'm only saying they didn't paid attention to the desktop when making that decision. I know they are stuck with mesa on the desktop. I also believe they expected everyone to go along with their choices, so they didn't care how mesa currently handles it, they probably expected them to change to whatever they choose, or to at least provide an option to work the way they want.
              Do you really think they didn't pay attention to their primary market when making that decision? I mean, it's possible, sure, but...that doesn't sound like a great business decision let alone addressing my concern of technical issues (which I THINK we agree were non-existant).
              Also, how could they reasonably expect everyone to just go along with their choices? How often has that happened?
              TBH, I don't think we disagree in the main, but I seriously question the above ideas. That seems to reek of naiviety and bluster...

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              • #22
                BY US FOR US!!!!! i dont know how many times i said it was only For UBUNTU AND UBUNTU ONLY now Piss off Ubuntu Zealots and on top of that he was so dumbfounded on how Mir and Wayland Worked it was not even Funny he did not even know how the CLA worked as well





                Ubuntu has Failed and out of the ashes The Steam OS will Rise's to Give Linux Users the Gaming experience they been Waiting for

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                • #23
                  > BY US FOR US!!!!! i dont know how many times i said it was only For UBUNTU AND UBUNTU ONLY now Piss off Ubuntu Zealots

                  You can't really blame them, they are victims of the dishonesty of Canonical, that has sent an entirely different message to the users, see for example this post by the "Ubuntu Community Manager": http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/07/10/mir-for-everyone/

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by liam View Post
                    Do you really think they didn't pay attention to their primary market when making that decision? I mean, it's possible, sure, but...that doesn't sound like a great business decision let alone addressing my concern of technical issues (which I THINK we agree were non-existant).
                    I agree with both points. But when asked about that (as much as Wayland is capable of allocating compositor/server side, Weston doesn't do it that way because Wayland and Weston authors think it's the wrong way (TM)) they said something like it leads to better performance on mobile. Considering how it was stated (I don't remember the reason, though) that it's worse for the desktop, I believe they chose to ignore the desktop there. Even when I consider it a stupid choice to do so.
                    Also, how could they reasonably expect everyone to just go along with their choices? How often has that happened?
                    I never said it was reasonable, I just said I think they did expect that.
                    TBH, I don't think we disagree in the main, but I seriously question the above ideas. That seems to reek of naiviety and bluster...
                    I don't think we disagree either. The fact I state what I think their motivations were doesn't mean I agree with such motivations, and I don't agree with them.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                      as much as Wayland is capable of allocating compositor/server side, Weston doesn't do it that way because Wayland and Weston authors think it's the wrong way (TM)
                      it's nothing to do with weston. how egl buffer allocation is handled is 100% up to the egl implementation. any wayland compositor using mesa for egl will do client-side allocation, because that's what mesa does. egl on rpi, running weston, uses server-side buffer allocation because that's what its egl implementation does. this required zero changes to weston.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                        BY US FOR US!!!!! i dont know how many times i said it was only For UBUNTU AND UBUNTU ONLY
                        No, they have said anyone is free to use it if it suits their needs (obviously the CLA is a drawback for some ) The whole talk was about what code can be shared between the two projects,if any, so work isn't further duplicated. By us for us if you want it you can use it der
                        Piss off Ubuntu Zealots and on top of that he was so dumbfounded on how Mir and Wayland Worked it was not even Funny he did not even know how the CLA worked as well
                        Yeah thats it knock a X.Org maintenance team developer over a CLA question,that although kind of relevant to the subject of code sharing, is also the most stupid question to ask since they are already well aware of how the CLA works and seems like an utter time wasting question.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
                          No, they have said anyone is free to use it if it suits their needs
                          Words < actions.

                          Canonical can say all they want that "anyone can use it" but they fail to understand something. They want to be the "leader" of Linux distros, they want to be in the front lines creating software which other people use. That's a fine goal in itself, but the way they go about it is ass-backwards. They fail to realize that in order to be a "leader" in open source, you can't just create software for your own needs and then tell others "use it if you like". In order to be a leader you need to create software that suits everyone's needs, something where everyone can collaborate and influence the project.

                          The fundamental difference between Mir and Wayland is the development model: Canonical develops Mir with the primary objective of it powering their Unity desktop, and any other desktop using it would be a second-class citizen to it. By contrast, Wayland is developed for very diverse needs, it can be used by many different projects. Now if you consider the choice from the Desktop Environment developers' point of view, they have a choice of trying to support Mir - and always playing catch-up to Canonical's changes, because they won't provide a stable server-side protocol to follow, they just have an API between Mir/Unity that they can break whenever they want (and have even stated that they will do so). They could choose to fork Mir, but at that point it'd just be easier to use Wayland, which is being developed to work for everyone, and promises a stable protocol to develop against.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rambutan View Post
                            > BY US FOR US!!!!! i dont know how many times i said it was only For UBUNTU AND UBUNTU ONLY now Piss off Ubuntu Zealots

                            You can't really blame them, they are victims of the dishonesty of Canonical, that has sent an entirely different message to the users, see for example this post by the "Ubuntu Community Manager": http://www.jonobacon.org/2013/07/10/mir-for-everyone/
                            i 100% blame Canonical and the Ubuntu Leader from Microsoft and all the forum trolls who said this was going to work on any thing but Ubuntu Unily Dumb shit like this is why Canonical is so far in the hole even Valve is dropping them

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                              I agree with both points. But when asked about that (as much as Wayland is capable of allocating compositor/server side, Weston doesn't do it that way because Wayland and Weston authors think it's the wrong way (TM)) they said something like it leads to better performance on mobile. Considering how it was stated (I don't remember the reason, though) that it's worse for the desktop, I believe they chose to ignore the desktop there. Even when I consider it a stupid choice to do so.

                              I never said it was reasonable, I just said I think they did expect that.

                              I don't think we disagree either. The fact I state what I think their motivations were doesn't mean I agree with such motivations, and I don't agree with them.

                              I clearly misunderstood your intent, and I think we're in agreement!
                              As Daniel says below, wayland/weston doesn't determine where the allocation occurs but is left to the egl implementaion. That makes Canonical's statements about this issue even more damning (either incompetance or simply lying).

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by liam View Post
                                I clearly misunderstood your intent, and I think we're in agreement!
                                As Daniel says below, wayland/weston doesn't determine where the allocation occurs but is left to the egl implementaion. That makes Canonical's statements about this issue even more damning (either incompetance or simply lying).
                                how do you think Microsoft got so damn big Lies Lies and more Lies

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