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A Buggy Mir Shown Running Unity 8 On Ubuntu Touch

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  • #46
    Originally posted by dee. View Post
    But in practice, are there anyone who actually use this possibility? Are there any Android(tm) devices that don't come with Play?
    Don't know, and it isn't relevant. You said "You can ship without Google apps, but then it won't be an Android(TM) device." That is factually incorrect.

    Originally posted by dee. View Post
    Well good for them.
    Again, you said "Of these, only Kindle is one that is being actually shipped on devices." That isn't correct. It is also ignoring that the Nook HD line runs android as well.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
      Don't know, and it isn't relevant. You said "You can ship without Google apps, but then it won't be an Android(TM) device." That is factually incorrect.
      We don't really know for sure, until Google approves a device without Google play to use the Android TM. Google hasn't explicitly stated that they'd approve this, and they've been disapproving of Android derivatives that deviate too much from Google's "vision" in the past... see: Aliyun OS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyun_OS

      Again, you said "Of these, only Kindle is one that is being actually shipped on devices." That isn't correct. It is also ignoring that the Nook HD line runs android as well.
      If you want to get anal about it, then yes, it actually is correct: of those mentioned only the Kindle is being shipped, as in, right now. There may be talk or plans about a CM-preloaded device, but that isn't shipping yet as of now, so what I said wasn't incorrect. The Nook HD wasn't mentioned in the post I was responding to, either, and it wasn't my responsibility to bring it up (nor was it relevant to the subject at hand at the time).

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      • #48
        Originally posted by dee. View Post
        We don't really know for sure, until Google approves a device without Google play to use the Android TM. Google hasn't explicitly stated that they'd approve this, and they've been disapproving of Android derivatives that deviate too much from Google's "vision" in the past... see: Aliyun OS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyun_OS
        Except for the little issue that the Kindle Fire pages use the Android trademark a lot. I can't find any indication that Google has bothered them about this. So either they are breaking the law and Google is ignoring it, or they have permission. Either way it doesn't seem to be a major issue for Google.

        Originally posted by dee. View Post
        If you want to get anal about it, then yes, it actually is correct: of those mentioned only the Kindle is being shipped, as in, right now. There may be talk or plans about a CM-preloaded device, but that isn't shipping yet as of now, so what I said wasn't incorrect. The Nook HD wasn't mentioned in the post I was responding to, either, and it wasn't my responsibility to bring it up (nor was it relevant to the subject at hand at the time).
        If you are going to get this pedantic, "If you ignore every Android-derivative like Kindle and Cyanogenmod", it was never limited to those exclusively.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          No, but developing things costs money. Especially proprietary things that can't take advantage of open source code. Also, then they won't be able to use Google's app store, either, and that happens to be the primary marketplace for Android apps.
          You don't need to develop anything proprietary. Android can install .apk files downloaded by the web browser - all you need to do to "make your own version of Play" is to host a web site and put the apk files there. You don't need a complicated frontend, you can just use the web browser. It's trivial. Amazon have their own Amazon Appstore for Android. You can install it on any Android device that supports sideloading or installs from non-Play sources. Amazon Appstore may not be as popular as Play but it does have over 100,000 apps, which is a lot. There are 36 different Appstores worldwide - Play may be the most popular but it is not a monopoly.

          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Of these, only Kindle is one that is being actually shipped on devices. The others are pretty much hobbyist projects, which people have to install on their own. Even so, they're all derivatives of Android, so of course they use the same display server and libc. There are, however, no non-Android systems that would use Bionic or Surfaceflinger.
          I already pointed out that there is a version of Gentoo that uses Bionic. You can load Gentoo onto any system you want. In fact, GCC supports Bionic as the default C library, so it shouldn't be that difficult to build any embedded Linux distribution using Bionic if you want. I think ChromeOS uses Bionic too, though I haven't checked.

          Also, Android GPU drivers need Bionic (libhybris has a private Bionic). Mer uses libhybris, so Mer relies on Bionic:

          http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl...1&cid=43430347
          The SoC vendors are willing to target only Android
          Android GPU drivers are built against Bionic libc
          The GPU drivers talk to hardware, and expose themselves via EGL and GLESv2
          EGL is basically a common API for GPU memory management, buffer (region of memory used for rendering) allocation and display updates
          GLESv2 stands in for the functionality we commonly associate with OpenGL
          GPU drivers form a combination of EGL and GLESv2 libraries, each GPU vendor providing their own

          This is where libhybris comes into play. The GPU driver libraries don't work without Bionic libc - so libhybris, while running on top of regular linux (and thus [e]glibc), keeps a private Bionic libc open for the GPU drivers' use, and redirects all the EGL/GLESv2 calls to the GPU driver libraries. These libraries run in their own Bionic universe, and tell the actual display hardware what to do.
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Yes, great, and we still don't have even one device that ships with Ubuntu Touch. And who knows when or if we ever get to see one, either. Anyways, just because someone ports something to some OS doesn't mean it's being used there. Ubuntu Touch is planning to use Mir, not SF.
          I said Ubuntu, not Ubuntu Touch. Dalvik is "fully working" on Ubuntu desktop. It doesn't really matter if a device ships with it or not, since it is trivial to install packages in Ubuntu.

          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Elsewhere? Can you name names? Which OS's are using Bionic?
          Gentoo-bionic. Also possibly ChromeOS and ChromeCast, I haven't checked.

          Probably also the various "Android" runtime stacks like Alien Dalvik and Bluestacks - it would make a lot of sense to compile the Android runtime and link it against Bionic rather than going to the effort of porting Android to a native libc and dealing with all the incompatibilities, but of course they don't have to give out source, so it is harder to tell for sure.

          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          And no, I don't care, any more than I care about all the proprietary apps that ship with Android. The Android runtime emulator runs in userland, and all the Android apps will IIRC be running sandboxed in Sailfish, so it's no real security risk. And no one forces you to use Android apps, anyway. It's an extra feature that is being offered, and if it's closed source I'm sure that's only because there are no open source alternatives available.
          So you criticise Android and Ubuntu for being "closed", but endorse a distribution that ships with an actual proprietary closed source software stack developed in secret by a commercial company. Seems contradictory.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
            Except for the little issue that the Kindle Fire pages use the Android trademark a lot.
            There's also the whole "Amazon Appstore for Android". I am a bit surprised that Google hasn't enforced the Android trademark against Amazon, given that under US trademark law if they fail to enforce a trademark they can lose it.

            edit: I guess Amazon could argue that the use of the trademark in "Amazon Appstore for Android" is entirely descriptive, but then the same logic could apply with "X Tablet for Android". Guess we won't find out what a court thinks unless Google decides to sue.
            Last edited by chrisb; 09-26-2013, 09:16 AM.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by chrisb View Post
              You don't need to develop anything proprietary. Android can install .apk files downloaded by the web browser - all you need to do to "make your own version of Play" is to host a web site and put the apk files there. You don't need a complicated frontend, you can just use the web browser. It's trivial. Amazon have their own Amazon Appstore for Android. You can install it on any Android device that supports sideloading or installs from non-Play sources. Amazon Appstore may not be as popular as Play but it does have over 100,000 apps, which is a lot. There are 36 different Appstores worldwide - Play may be the most popular but it is not a monopoly.
              Well that's nice.

              I already pointed out that there is a version of Gentoo that uses Bionic. You can load Gentoo onto any system you want. In fact, GCC supports Bionic as the default C library, so it shouldn't be that difficult to build any embedded Linux distribution using Bionic if you want. I think ChromeOS uses Bionic too, though I haven't checked.
              I don't think it does.

              Also, Android GPU drivers need Bionic (libhybris has a private Bionic). Mer uses libhybris, so Mer relies on Bionic:
              Now you're just reaching for straws. Libhybris is only used as a necessary measure to be able to utilize Android drivers, since the popularity of Android means that no manufacturer wants to provide anything other than Android drivers. This is also why it's a bad thing that Android is so far away from regular Linux distros, it makes it harder for non-Android systems to utilize the hardware. Most Android drivers are closed-source.

              Mer uses Glibc as the actual libc that the system uses. They don't use bionic because they think it's great, they use it in a compatibility layer because it's the only practical choice to get driver support.

              I said Ubuntu, not Ubuntu Touch.
              And? Ubuntu plans to use Mir on the desktop too. Sadly.

              Dalvik is "fully working" on Ubuntu desktop. It doesn't really matter if a device ships with it or not, since it is trivial to install packages in Ubuntu.
              Yes it matters. If it's not a part of the distro and not even included in standard repos, that means it's not being used. You're moving the goalposts. You could just as well say that everything is in Arch, since users can install whatever they want... that's not the same thing as a distro shipping with it and using it by default, and you know it.

              And there's nothing special about Ubuntu that would make package installing any more "trivial" than other distros. Package management is easy in all modern distros.

              Gentoo-bionic. Also possibly ChromeOS and ChromeCast, I haven't checked.
              Gentoo doesn't ship on any devices though. It's very much a hobbyist OS (not counting derivatives), where people can pretty much install what they want and customize everything, similar to Arch. Not sure about ChromeOS, but ChromeCast doesn't use Bionic, even though it's based on Android.

              So you criticise Android and Ubuntu for being "closed", but endorse a distribution that ships with an actual proprietary closed source software stack developed in secret by a commercial company. Seems contradictory.
              I could say the same thing about you but in reverse... so that's not a useful argument in any way.

              The parts that matter are open in Sailfish. And not only open in the sense that you get a big blob of source releases from one monolithical source after every public release. Mer is an actual community project where anyone can join in the development. The software used in the system are community projects too: Wayland, Qt, libhybris, systemd, glibc and GNU tools - all are community-driven software that welcome patches and contributions from regular people. By contrast, Android reinvents the wheel in many cases - they use their own software solutions that aren't compatible with most Linux distros. Ubuntu does the same, with Mir. The fact that Sailfish resembles regular Linux distros much more than Android is a benefit, because it allows you to run any regular open source Linux software on it, which isn't possible on Android.

              Of course, these design choices might have been necessary when Android was first made, I don't know. But now they no longer are, and Android is locked into a trap of having to maintain backwards compatibility with their earlier versions. Which means that it will in all likelihood stay incompatible with the GNU/Linux world.

              As for the Android compatibility layer, it's an userland application. No different from a distro shipping with Chrome or the Steam client or Virtualbox. It's not a part of the core system, it's not essential for the operation of the system, and it wouldn't be necessary in the first place if Android wasn't made to be so different from other Linux systems - so ultimately it's Google's fault that it needs to be shipped. Maybe if an open source solution shows up that fulfills the same purpose, that can be used instead, but for now it's a necessity for a small startup to use such a software in order to be able to leverage the Android app ecosystem. Either way, it's in no way necessary to ever use Android apps in Sailfish, you can remove Alien Dalvik from Sailfish and it will work just fine without it.

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              • #52
                Just to clarify. I'm not saying that Android is bad or that I hate it or whatever.

                Android is nice and all, but there's enough advantages in Sailfish & Tizen to justify having them as alternate mobile platforms. One monolithic platform monopolizing almost 90% of the market is not healthy, open source or not. Especially, when most of that platform is dominated by one manufacturer (Samsung). So it's good to have alternates, especially when they allow benefits that Android doesn't.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Stellarwind View Post
                  Mer != Sailfish. Come back when they open their UX sources.
                  Ouch. That's a blow.

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