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Luc Verhaegen Comments On Intel/Mir Politics

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  • #31
    Originally posted by verde View Post
    Fantastic article. Linux community is really sick.
    Linux community!? LOL. It's just two companies pie-throwing over the next display server. Nothing unusual in the corporate world, just in case you didn't know.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Pajn View Post
      The whole Wayland vs. Mir is just fanboys and hatred.
      People who care about the technology doesn't rely care.
      Labeling others as 'fanboys' doesn't diminish their arguments or make you look more objective.
      There is valid arguments against Conanical's choice to use their own DS, and it doesn't just involve emotional attachments to one tech or the other.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
        is backwards, is certain that intel won't touch Mir, so canonical will have to maintain their own mesa branch to make Mir support intel drivers, aka the burden of support the hardware is back to canonical which is the one with the genius idea of make Mir in the first place, not intel in the upstream driver that have noting to do with canonical decisions.

        so like is working today ubuntu will provide a mesa packages will all the neccesary patches to support open drivers in Mir and regular mesa will have wayland support by default thats is all this decision means
        Good thing I'll be sticking with NVIDIA.

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        • #34
          i dont get this why bash Intel for removing a Junk Patch that was developed for Political Gain thats why the shitty Mir server was developed Troll Blog

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          • #35
            Originally posted by phoronix View Post
            Phoronix: Luc Verhaegen Comments On Intel/Mir Politics

            Luc Verhaegen, the former RadeonHD graphics driver developer at SUSE and now working on the Lima project for reverse-engineering ARM Mali graphics, has shared his thoughts on the recent developments surrounding Intel backing out their XMir driver support...

            http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTQ1ODE
            It is a bit laughable to accuse Intel of politics, when the entire Mir inception amounts to a 100% pure political move since Mir adds /nothing/ technologically, yet he fails (or deliberately omits) to see that.

            And then calls on Intel to be mature. Sure, Intel can forgive Canonical, so long as Mark Shuttleworth scraps his Mir plans and moves over the developer efforts toward bringing Wayland and XWayland to the desktop, and switches back to his original commitment. Should Intel take on Canonical's responsibility of maintaining their patches because Mir users might potentially expose bugs that can be patched up upstream? To me that is a barely tenable argument... because Wayland users - of which there will be thousandfold more (if not even more), will have exposed every bug in every nook and cranny of the Wayland source code and the Intel GPU drivers.

            All due respect to Luc - but he is posturing and adding nothing new to this discussion. Canonical made their bed, now they need to lie in it.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by MartinN View Post
              because Wayland users - of which there will be thousandfold more (if not even more), will have exposed every bug in every nook and cranny of the Wayland source code and the Intel GPU drivers.
              lol

              Maybe they can get the X bugs ironed out first.

              Even on Windows the Intel drivers and GPUs are a bit of a joke.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by johnc View Post
                Maybe they can get the X bugs ironed out first.
                for some reason people think wayland is an independant product that got out few X developers asses for simple fun or masochism, what you fail to see is that every project in the graphic stack was rewritten to make wayland possible[and mir] aka KMS/DRM/DRI2,3/Gallium/mesa/drivers architecture/TTM/libpciaccess/xkb/pixman/and many other related projects because wayland was literally impossible to make with the previous graphic stack.

                more simply put every line of code made in the last 5 years to the graphic stack in kernel and userspace was with the goal of creating wayland, wayland is the final piece needed to complete the graphic stack upgrade[aka the usable user side API for toolkits] even more simply wayland didn't take 5 years of ultra carefully slow protocol design, rewrite the entire graphic stack to make wayland possible took 5 years.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by johnc View Post
                  Maybe they can get the X bugs ironed out first.
                  To be fair (and i'm no X11 expert) X11 doesn't really have so many "bugs" as it has "architectural flaws".

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by F i L View Post
                    To be fair (and i'm no X11 expert) X11 doesn't really have so many "bugs" as it has "architectural flaws".
                    I was more referring to Intel's X drivers.

                    The idea that in due time (and soon) every bug will be ironed out of Wayland and Intel's driver is kind of silly.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by F i L View Post
                      To be fair (and i'm no X11 expert) X11 doesn't really have so many "bugs" as it has "architectural flaws".
                      flaws that showed up after a darn long time... and after way too many square pegs were fit into round holes. Not sure if it's fair to even call it flawed... more like obsolete?

                      If you'd ask me if it was flawed in 1996, I'd probably say 'heck no'

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                      • #41
                        I wanted to make a reference to radeon-hd in another forum today because it reminded me, I wanted to refer to that, to show some Ubuntu fanboys, that its not about ubuntu-hatred but a normal thing allways happen if something tries something stupid.

                        Ok the 2 things are not 100% comparable, but it did make sense to support only 1 driver for 1 hardware. everything else is in the long run just retarded like hell. you can argue that radeonhd was the better solution, possible but then radoen would had to die.

                        And here we have another similarity, radeon-hd was pretty much a novell exclusive job, and they had exclusive access to hardware-documentation. So it would have given novell that got much money from microsoft at this days much power. So of course thats a big part why they did loose the "race".

                        But at least they had some technical reasons for their branch. they wanted do some stuff differently. while there is no known reason for mir except ubuntu has control over it.

                        But like ubuntu now its free software, or open source at least, each retard can make a account on github canoncial evne have their own github... so... wtf? how can canonical think that some other companies pay money to support this ubuntu-only technolegy who is now clear will never become a part of any other distribution?

                        Its not about politics but find best solutions, and I also cannot go to ubuntu and say hei, I want to make something similar to x-server can you make me a patch for your x-driver? they would direktly delete my mail-question and put me on a bannlist.


                        And btw, where was this flamewar when they anounced that they want not support gallium (at least not for now maybe in the future). they do what they think is in their interest, its opensource everybody can include their stack or not, but you cant demand them to support your stuff for free.


                        the funniest part is, that the people that are nvidia fanboys, and have no problem with nvidia dont support any opensource efforts are now shurely often that people that find it totaly not ok from intel to support this one opensource solution, I mean nvidia does not support gallium as example, its not even clear if it will be possible to run nvidia blob with wayland, or lets take the randr support... intel does not hinder you to patch whatever you want into their driver so if you are a nvidia fanboy please dont even start to flame here against intel.

                        I hope amd does the same.
                        Last edited by blackiwid; 09-10-2013, 05:53 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
                          I wanted to make a reference to radeon-hd in another forum today because it reminded me, I wanted to refer to that, to show some Ubuntu fanboys, that its not about ubuntu-hatred but a normal thing allways happen if something tries something stupid.

                          Ok the 2 things are not 100% comparable, but it did make sense to support only 1 driver for 1 hardware. everything else is in the long run just retarded like hell. you can argue that radeonhd was the better solution, possible but then radoen would had to die.

                          And here we have another similarity, radeon-hd was pretty much a novell exclusive job, and they had exclusive access to hardware-documentation. So it would have given novell that got much money from microsoft at this days much power. So of course thats a big part why they did loose the "race".

                          But at least they had some technical reasons for their branch. they wanted do some stuff differently.
                          Oh wow.

                          RadeonHD supported R500 and up (where the display engine got _completely_ changed), and our plan was to have Radeon support R100 through rs480 (and do it well and finally stabilize). There was a very clear division there, one that made perfect technical and practical sense.

                          RadeonHD made sure that HW documentation went out. We never did accept documentation from ATI (and it was ATI which was forced to provide this documentation, AMD had no access itself - and this is why we only got limited documentation), which we were not assured would go out. Mr Bridgman from ATI has broken that promise on several docs that i still have in my possession. The free docs dried up the second RadeonHD died, ATI never wanted to produce these, and you all just got docs _because_ of radeonHD. If anyone had exclusive access to documentation, then it was the Radeon project. We repeatedly caught ATIs Mr Bridgman providing information and documentation to the other project first, before talking to AMDs partner.

                          And finally, RadeonHD was a SuSE project, with half the developer time paid by AMD and the other half provided by SuSE, to ensure that there would be a technical solution which suits both parties. Novell was happy to take some of the marketing noise (and the money, to strangely redistribute it over the company), but that was about it.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by libv View Post
                            Oh wow.

                            RadeonHD supported R500 and up (where the display engine got _completely_ changed), and our plan was to have Radeon support R100 through rs480 (and do it well and finally stabilize). There was a very clear division there, one that made perfect technical and practical sense.

                            RadeonHD made sure that HW documentation went out. We never did accept documentation from ATI (and it was ATI which was forced to provide this documentation, AMD had no access itself - and this is why we only got limited documentation), which we were not assured would go out. Mr Bridgman from ATI has broken that promise on several docs that i still have in my possession. The free docs dried up the second RadeonHD died, ATI never wanted to produce these, and you all just got docs _because_ of radeonHD. If anyone had exclusive access to documentation, then it was the Radeon project. We repeatedly caught ATIs Mr Bridgman providing information and documentation to the other project first, before talking to AMDs partner.

                            And finally, RadeonHD was a SuSE project, with half the developer time paid by AMD and the other half provided by SuSE, to ensure that there would be a technical solution which suits both parties. Novell was happy to take some of the marketing noise (and the money, to strangely redistribute it over the company), but that was about it.
                            Hold on here, How is it that you can blame your decisions on someone else? It was you that decided you didnt want to use Atombios, it was your decision to bang modesetting hardware directly. That had nothing to do with anyone else. If you want to place blame, then place it where it belongs. (You had all the documentation you needed, you just wanted documentation that was unreasonable to expect to get.)

                            You chose to implement a development model that wasnt supportable. The reason that radeon surpassed radeonhd was because other developers could implement support for functionality and features that would have been far more difficult to do on radeonhd because of the choices you made.

                            EDIT: I remember it clearly. It was mid 2007, radeonhd was still working on getting basic mode setting working and radeon implemented Atombios and supported more hardware than radeonhd instantly. There was no chance at all that you could provide the same level of support doing what you were doing. Additionally radeon was able to leverage work done for older generations to get a jump start for r600, which wasnt even a possibility on radeonhd. And radeon had more developers contributing to it.
                            Last edited by duby229; 09-10-2013, 07:17 PM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
                              Stopped reading after the first two lines.
                              a big mistake. you could have learned something

                              "So what if Canonical has decided to reinvent Wayland? Apart from the weird contribution agreement (which will only limit contributions), Mir is fully free software isn't it? Who are they hurting apart from their own resources and their own users? It's not that I am applauding Canonical for their decision, but I really don't see the massive problem here." Why is Canonical not allowed to do this?"
                              that's more than 2 lines.

                              Am I missing something?
                              a lot it seems...
                              Who has ever said that Canonical isn't allowed to build their own dispaly server?
                              many
                              The point is that they'll have to do it on their own
                              arn't they? sure they use also some other code... open source code allowed to be used for that. so do others, also wayland.
                              and can't force anyone to support them.
                              am I missing something?
                              If I come up with something why should I demand other people do do my homework?
                              hmm, i think i am missng something, beside the fact, that your statement sounds sooooo VERY differnt to the complains i read about canonical regarding mir.
                              This guy obviously has no overview of the situation.
                              how you can judge if you have read only two lines?
                              beside of that it seems you have no overview, neither of that guys post nor of mir vs wayland drama.



                              p.s.
                              "... then I read this article. It is a who's who of reinventers, complaining about Canonical reinventing Wayland"

                              quite true.

                              p.p.s. you should really read his post. he is NOT defending canonical.
                              Last edited by a user; 09-10-2013, 07:52 PM.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by libv View Post
                                Oh wow.

                                And finally, RadeonHD was a SuSE project, with half the developer time paid by AMD and the other half provided by SuSE, to ensure that there would be a technical solution which suits both parties. Novell was happy to take some of the marketing noise (and the money, to strangely redistribute it over the company), but that was about it.
                                like I said, it makes no sence to support 2 drivers for 1 hardware in the long run, especialy of grafics drivers because they are extremly complex. So I did understand that xorg didnt want to deliver 2 and confuse the users. Maybe the communication in this time wasnt good, I cant say much about that.

                                But I also said that you seem to at least had a reason to do it, which you made clear at that time. Ubuntu cant even say a real reason except they want to have control over it as reason.

                                And what hindered you to load that driver on github and then develop some features radeon did not have, and if you would have more features or more speed or whatever over a year or so... I am shure you would have someday replaced radeon. opensource is a bit like evolution, the better stuff most of the time survices and or that who more organisms cooperate.

                                Ubuntu seems to want fight evolution right now, much luck with that.

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