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  • #31
    Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
    No,Dee,Mir isn't meant for only unity

    "In a nutshell, we are passionate about encouraging not only Ubuntu flavors, but all distributions (either Ubuntu-derived or not) to be able to harness Mir as a powerful next-generation display server for either shipping their X desktop with XMir or harnessing Mir directly."

    You continually parrot the same old crap over and over like a broken record. If folk wish to use Mir or Wayland in their DE they can choose to do so .
    It matters not if Mir is a benefit over x or Wayland, it's simply another option, not the end of the world like you make it out to be.
    It may not be as bad as the end of the world, but it is as bad as application developers needing to support both it and wayland. It is not a "one or the other" situation... It's a "both" situation..... That's likely to drive application developers to simply stick with X. It's as bad as potentially holding linux desktop technology back a few years.

    EDIT: Some people say that GTK, Qt, SDL etc eliminates that problem, but it doesnt really. In some cases high level developers won't need to worry about it, but that won't be the majority.

    EDIT2: The best situation is for everyone... I really do mean everyone... to decide that Mir is a complete waste of time and not support it at all. Canonical will then have to move their retarded stance.
    Last edited by duby229; 08-11-2013, 07:59 PM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
      No,Dee,Mir isn't meant for only unity
      Yes it is. It's the purpose for its existence. Like Daleks know only how to hate, Mir knows only how to run Unity.

      "In a nutshell, we are passionate about encouraging not only Ubuntu flavors, but all distributions (either Ubuntu-derived or not) to be able to harness Mir as a powerful next-generation display server for either shipping their X desktop with XMir or harnessing Mir directly."
      Yeah, actions speak louder than words. Unity, as it is now, doesn't run on any other distro besides Ubuntu, even Arch users have trouble getting it to run outside its natural habitat. Mir is not going to be supported by any other DE than Unity, and there are good reasons for that. I've explained those reasons many time, and no Ubuntu fan has yet been able to refute them.

      (And no, running on XMir doesn't count. That's not native support, the DE's still run on X, which runs on top of Mir... it's just a dirty hack that's entirely pointless, because you'll still be left with all the shortcomings of X, only with an extra layer of overhead. Why any sane DE would want that is beyond me.)

      For starters, Mir doesn't have any kind of stable protocol. Mir is being developed for the needs of Unity alone, without any consideration for any other desktop environment, or any input accepted from anyone else. This isn't just my opinion. The Mir developers themselves have publicly stated all this.

      Now, there's a huge difference between Mir and Wayland. Mir is a monolithical server, it's the "Mir server" and that's that. Let's say, you want to get your DE to support Mir: since there's no specified protocol, let alone any guarantee of API stability on the server side, you'll have to play catch-up with Canonical every time they make changes, and Canonical won't take any input from you because the very reason for Mir is that they get to play alone on the sandbox without others interfering and do what they want, they get to only consider the needs of Unity and ignore any other DE. So you'll be playing a cat-and-mouse game with Canonical's updates. Meanwhile, you'll have to use Canonical's patched versions of Mesa, toolkits etc. to even get the Mir server working, so no chance of the same codebase being able to support both Mir and Wayland (or possibly even Mir and plain X).

      Whereas, Wayland is a protocol, and it promises a stable API. Wayland, unlike Mir, doesn't have a "wayland server", there doesn't need to be a "server" at all. You just take libwayland and implement your own compositor according to the protocol, and you can make it whatever way you like, you can customize it entirely to suit all your needs and use whatever language you want - no one is forcing any design choices on you. Client-side allocation or server-side, your choice. Use Android drivers? Sure. Software/hardware rendering? Your choice. Almost nothing is dictated to be done in one way in Wayland, it allows perfect flexibility. Not only that, you get to use the stock versions of Mesa, all the toolkits etc. Every modern toolkit is implementing Wayland support (Qt5, GTK+3, SDL, SDL2, EFL).

      Considering these facts, why exactly would any desktop environment even want to support Mir? It's such a no-brainer choice in Wayland's favour that it's not even funny. It's not a matter of wanting to do it or not, it's simply not feasible for anyone besides Canonical to support Mir.

      You continually parrot the same old crap over and over like a broken record. If folk wish to use Mir or Wayland in their DE they can choose to do so .
      It matters not if Mir is a benefit over x or Wayland, it's simply another option, not the end of the world like you make it out to be.
      I don't parrot anyone, I speak my own mind. And you can't really afford to call my posts "crap" unless you have some really good and logical arguments to show us all why I'm wrong and you're right.

      Just imagine what the world could have looked like if they had stuck with Wayland. We could finally have that something that would unify the entire Linux world, both desktop and mobile. One display system, running everywhere - just like the Linux kernel. Instead, we got a hard split that fragments the desktop Linux into two parts, Ubuntu vs everyone else...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
        No,Dee,Mir isn't meant for only unity

        "In a nutshell, we are passionate about encouraging not only Ubuntu flavors, but all distributions (either Ubuntu-derived or not) to be able to harness Mir as a powerful next-generation display server for either shipping their X desktop with XMir or harnessing Mir directly."

        You continually parrot the same old crap over and over like a broken record. If folk wish to use Mir or Wayland in their DE they can choose to do so .
        It matters not if Mir is a benefit over x or Wayland, it's simply another option, not the end of the world like you make it out to be.
        we have a vary powerful "next-generation display server" its called Wayland and it's under Mass Development and soon to be Mass Deployment
        also you need Toolkits for Mir how many do we have in-tree? None how many do we have for Wayland in-tree 5+ how do you harness Mir even when the Developers of it can't remember API agnostic?

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        • #34
          people forget that Unity is not a desktop. They still use Gnome for most of the parts. That means they need to port GTK to Mir and subsequently port all Gnome programs to Mir as well.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by garegin View Post
            people forget that Unity is not a desktop. They still use Gnome for most of the parts. That means they need to port GTK to Mir and subsequently port all Gnome programs to Mir as well.
            No, they're making new Unity non-gnome-based, it will be built with Qt. That means that the entire codebase of Unity will be rewritten.

            So, the next LTS release - you know, the ones marked for their higher stability - will not only have a new, untested display server made by people with no real know-how or experience with the graphics stack, but it will also have a totally rewritten from scratch desktop environment. But hey, what could possibly go wrong?

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            • #36
              Originally posted by dee. View Post
              but it will also have a totally rewritten from scratch desktop environment.
              No. It will use Unity 7. Unity 8 will run on Mir natively, and that will only happen in 14.10. Assuming they don't change their minds again.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                No. It will use Unity 7. Unity 8 will run on Mir natively, and that will only happen in 14.10. Assuming they don't change their minds again.
                Oh I guess I mixed them up, but who keeps track of their plans...

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                • #38
                  at this point is doesn't matter. success in the real world means respect for proprietary developers and a stable API. until those things are accomplishes linux desktop will linger in niche because a platform is as good as its APPS. and the apps on linux are few and immature. all of the FOSS ones run better on Windows (vlc, firefox, mplayer, handbrake) than on Linux

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by dee. View Post
                    So, the next LTS release - you know, the ones marked for their higher stability - will not only have a new, untested display server made by people with no real know-how or experience with the graphics stack, but it will also have a totally rewritten from scratch desktop environment. But hey, what could possibly go wrong?
                    Yeah, that stuff should be implemented in LTS+1. Hardy would have been a lot better without (poorly configured) pulseaudio.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by dee. View Post
                      Oh I guess I mixed them up, but who keeps track of their plans...
                      This was announced back in ~May. It was on most linux news sites, including this one.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by garegin View Post
                        at this point is doesn't matter. success in the real world means respect for proprietary developers and a stable API. until those things are accomplishes linux desktop will linger in niche because a platform is as good as its APPS. and the apps on linux are few and immature. all of the FOSS ones run better on Windows (vlc, firefox, mplayer, handbrake) than on Linux
                        VLC and Firefox run just fine on my Linux - no difference to the windows versions at all really. GIMP runs much better on Linux than on Windows, as does Krita. Inkscape is about the same.

                        There's also tons of apps on Linux, don't know what you mean "few". Many are anything but immature.

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                        • #42
                          Ok. Whatever you say.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by garegin View Post
                            at this point is doesn't matter. success in the real world means respect for proprietary developers and a stable API. until those things are accomplishes linux desktop will linger in niche because a platform is as good as its APPS. and the apps on linux are few and immature. all of the FOSS ones run better on Windows (vlc, firefox, mplayer, handbrake) than on Linux
                            Kdenlive is much better than anything I've tried on Windows, including the commercial offerings. And it's Linux-exclusive, too.

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