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  • #16
    Regardless of any perceived superiority in Wayland, Mir is the one with big backing. Canonical can go to AMD and nVidia and get special drivers made when XOrg cannot. Canonical and Valve are in partnership so games will be ported to Mir, etc. Ubuntu is the defacto Linux OS, it has easily the largest install base, it has users that are not technologically minded and will not care in the slightest about Mir vs Wayland.

    Being best is not winning and it never has been.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by scottishduck View Post
      Regardless of any perceived superiority in Wayland, Mir is the one with big backing. Canonical can go to AMD and nVidia and get special drivers made when XOrg cannot. Canonical and Valve are in partnership so games will be ported to Mir, etc. Ubuntu is the defacto Linux OS, it has easily the largest install base, it has users that are not technologically minded and will not care in the slightest about Mir vs Wayland.

      Being best is not winning and it never has been.
      Big backing from the company that has to beg for money from their users to get a phone made?

      Anyway, you're clearly talking about things you don't know about. That's the problem with blind fanboyism. Ubuntu has, at most, 30-40% of the market share of home-user desktop Linux systems. All of the rest will be using Wayland eventually, while Mir will only run on Ubuntu. That means that Mir will have the minority market share compared to Wayland. The real money for GPU makers is not in Ubuntu, which is pretty minuscule compared to the actually profitable markets - render farms and workstations, which will not run Ubuntu. Most of them run RHEL which will be using Wayland.

      Even if what you said were true - which it isn't - there would be no such thing as "Mir drivers" or "Wayland drivers". There will be EGL-drivers. Mir requires EGL to render. Wayland is backend-agnostic, and can run on a variety of backends - including Android drivers or pure software rendering. Even if GPU-manufacturers were to make only Mir-compatible drivers (which, again, won't happen because EGL), it would be trivial to write a Wayland-backend to use those drivers.

      Also, want to talk about "big backing"? Wayland is backed by Intel, Red Hat, Collabora, Samsung, Jolla... now what were you saying about "big backing"?

      Games potentially being ported to Mir is exactly the reason why Mir is so disruptive and needs to die as soon as possible. It's a dirty power-grab by Canonical and shows how blind their fanboys can be. If Microsoft did the same, everyone would be up at arms at how evil they are, trying to implement vendor lock-in and exclude others from the market. Canonical does it and suddenly they're the "grand innovator". Yeah right...

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      • #18
        Originally posted by uid313 View Post
        Yes, I know.
        But it is the old version.
        They pull from Debian testing or unstable, I don't remember which. But the version Ubuntu has is the same as that Debian one. Its not a conspiracy to keep Wayland down. I'm not paid by Canonical. I'm just a guy with knowledge.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by scottishduck View Post
          Regardless of any perceived superiority in Wayland, Mir is the one with big backing.
          Canonical is in the red, while Intel and Red Hat are on the rise. They back Wayland.

          Canonical can go to AMD and nVidia and get special drivers made when XOrg cannot.
          And you base this claim on what? Blobs were there before Ubuntu existed.

          Canonical and Valve are in partnership so games will be ported to Mir, etc.
          Valve is in partnership with Valve into providing a Linux based console. The Ubuntu thing might be a partnership, or it might be beta testing.

          Ubuntu is the defacto Linux OS, it has easily the largest install base, it has users that are not technologically minded and will not care in the slightest about Mir vs Wayland.

          Being best is not winning and it never has been.
          On this, we agree. That doesn't make it better in the slightest.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by scottishduck View Post
            Regardless of any perceived superiority in Wayland, Mir is the one with big backing. Canonical can go to AMD and nVidia and get special drivers made when XOrg cannot. Canonical and Valve are in partnership so games will be ported to Mir, etc. Ubuntu is the defacto Linux OS, it has easily the largest install base, it has users that are not technologically minded and will not care in the slightest about Mir vs Wayland.

            Being best is not winning and it never has been.
            You are vastly overestimating Canonicals power. They have none. They pretty much have to do whatever their business partners want them to do. Canonical is a tiny company that isn't even making a profit. RedHat could buy Canonical 10 times. NVIDIA is making money on workstation. That's why they even have drivers for FreeBSD and even Solaris. Ubuntu isn't really significant for them. There will never be such a thing as a "Mir driver" anyway. Games will also still use SDL like they do know. It's more likely that Wayland support in SDL will be upstreamed than Mir. At least the wayland SDL branch seems to be usable.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by scottishduck View Post
              Regardless of any perceived superiority in Wayland, Mir is the one with big backing. Canonical can go to AMD and nVidia and get special drivers made when XOrg cannot. Canonical and Valve are in partnership so games will be ported to Mir, etc. Ubuntu is the defacto Linux OS, it has easily the largest install base, it has users that are not technologically minded and will not care in the slightest about Mir vs Wayland.

              Being best is not winning and it never has been.
              To which drivers are you referring? EGL? If so, nVidia has been working on EGL drivers for years. No one ever said that nVidia started working on their rumored/promised unified EGL-driver because of Canonicals request (most recently directly stated by someone from nvidia XDC2012).

              I seem to recall that the Steambox OS were supposed to be based on Ubuntu, but since Valve listens to their customers, my bet is that if they still base it on Ubuntu, it won't be with a Mir-based Unity.
              Now, if anyone has pull when it comes to drivers, I bet that gaming companies has much more pull than silly small, yet weirdly successful companies (I really struggle to understand Ubuntus success with Unity. All other Ubuntu distros are nicer looking and mostly more stable).

              I still wonder if Unbuntu install stats, are all Ubuntu distros, or if it's only Unity-based Ubuntu distros. Because most non-unity based Ubuntu distros will be running using Wayland. In short, if Ubuntu doesn't gain massive success on mobile platforms, they're in trouble.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BO$$
                Exactly what I wanted to say. For people XMir or Mir is basically the same thing so if Ubuntu manages to put XMir on 13.10 it will be an image win. Wayland started earlier and not yet finished while the new cool kid on the block, Canonical, comes in halfway and steals the show. BAM! Canonical marketing department will push for Mir with the big boys and will make it a popular target either the Linux community wishes it or not. This is the big boys talking not the amateur hotshots writing code. Even if their code is superior it doesn't matter. Make a decent program and push millions of $$$ for advertising and you're set. Technical arguments suck and have made the Linux community blind to the obvious truth because they are technical people and would like the best code to be the most popular. That is not how the world works unfortunately. All you can do now is grab tight to the Canonical ship that is sailing away, leaving the Linux community as a whole to sink into the abyss. Canonical is Ubuntu is Linux. What they do is what you do or you can go back to Master Microsoft if you don't like it.
                Lol, I read the text first and thought this must has been written by BO$$.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by BO$$
                  So I have an original style that is easily recognizable. Thank you! That was a compliment!
                  No I'm pretty sure it was intended as a.k.a, "Listen to this dumbass!" That's definitely what I was thinking anyway.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by moilami View Post
                    Lol, I read the text first and thought this must has been written by BO$$.
                    Lol, I thought this has been written by BO$$ first and I didn't read the text.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Radeon driver is broken with Mir patches

                      Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                      they also need to fix full system Lock ups for AMD users
                      I don't run Mir, have no plans to run Unity. I use Cinnamon-and found that xserver-xorg-video-radeon_1%3a7.2.0-0ubuntu2_amd64.deb , which is supposed to work in both xmir and non-xmir configurations, does not work. X will run, and some forms of acceleration work, but permission problems in /run prevent games from opening except as root, and cinnamon gets an error about not being able to load the r600 driver. Even as root, Cinnamon won't run. Rolling back xserver-xorg-video-radeon to the pre-mir version (from xorg-edgers) fixes all of these problems.

                      It is essential that all of the drivers work when Mir is not installed-or users will need to pin them for now and ultimately fetch updates from some other repo without the Mir patches. Ideally, the same packages would work in straight X, Xmir, and Xwayland. Combining this with the same Mesa versions working with Wayland, Mir, and X should be considered an absolute necessity to preserve the ability of users to run the desktop and applications of their choice.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by BO$$
                        Exactly what I wanted to say. For people XMir or Mir is basically the same thing so if Ubuntu manages to put XMir on 13.10 it will be an image win. Wayland started earlier and not yet finished while the new cool kid on the block, Canonical, comes in halfway and steals the show. BAM! Canonical marketing department will push for Mir with the big boys and will make it a popular target either the Linux community wishes it or not. This is the big boys talking not the amateur hotshots writing code. Even if their code is superior it doesn't matter. Make a decent program and push millions of $$$ for advertising and you're set. Technical arguments suck and have made the Linux community blind to the obvious truth because they are technical people and would like the best code to be the most popular. That is not how the world works unfortunately. All you can do now is grab tight to the Canonical ship that is sailing away, leaving the Linux community as a whole to sink into the abyss. Canonical is Ubuntu is Linux. What they do is what you do or you can go back to Master Microsoft if you don't like it.
                        To a degree yes.

                        As long as the Linux community can get access and beneficial use of the Mir code base, let the best man win!

                        Jog my memory here but hasn't Canonical made public trees available for anyone to use?

                        Cheers!

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by UraniumDeer View Post
                          I seem to recall that the Steambox OS were supposed to be based on Ubuntu, but since Valve listens to their customers, my bet is that if they still base it on Ubuntu, it won't be with a Mir-based Unity.
                          It's less listening to customers and more listening to common sense. There are 0 Mir games on Steam. There are all X.org games on Steam. Thus the SteamBox will use X.org.

                          Originally posted by kwagga View Post
                          Jog my memory here but hasn't Canonical made public trees available for anyone to use?
                          Nobody cares about it, they have Wayland.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Luke View Post
                            I don't run Mir, have no plans to run Unity. I use Cinnamon-and found that xserver-xorg-video-radeon_1%3a7.2.0-0ubuntu2_amd64.deb , which is supposed to work in both xmir and non-xmir configurations, does not work. X will run, and some forms of acceleration work, but permission problems in /run prevent games from opening except as root, and cinnamon gets an error about not being able to load the r600 driver. Even as root, Cinnamon won't run. Rolling back xserver-xorg-video-radeon to the pre-mir version (from xorg-edgers) fixes all of these problems.

                            It is essential that all of the drivers work when Mir is not installed-or users will need to pin them for now and ultimately fetch updates from some other repo without the Mir patches. Ideally, the same packages would work in straight X, Xmir, and Xwayland. Combining this with the same Mesa versions working with Wayland, Mir, and X should be considered an absolute necessity to preserve the ability of users to run the desktop and applications of their choice.
                            On newer AMD cards when testing Xmir it Locks my Computer 100% this is the frist time i had a full system lock up on any Linux OS the funny part is the 25 year old shitty Xorg works just fine Wayland>Xwayland>Xorg>XFree86>Xgl>Xsun>Xming>Cygwi n/X>NOXserver>XmirorMir

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by kwagga View Post
                              As long as the Linux community can get access and beneficial use of the Mir code base, let the best man win!

                              Jog my memory here but hasn't Canonical made public trees available for anyone to use?
                              How is anyone supposed to get "beneficial use" of a software that only works with Unity, which no one else uses? No other DE will ever use Mir, because it's not practical for anyone else to use it, and there's already a better option for them - Wayland. So how exactly does Mir benefit anyone?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by dee. View Post
                                How is anyone supposed to get "beneficial use" of a software that only works with Unity, which no one else uses? No other DE will ever use Mir, because it's not practical for anyone else to use it, and there's already a better option for them - Wayland. So how exactly does Mir benefit anyone?
                                No,Dee,Mir isn't meant for only unity

                                "In a nutshell, we are passionate about encouraging not only Ubuntu flavors, but all distributions (either Ubuntu-derived or not) to be able to harness Mir as a powerful next-generation display server for either shipping their X desktop with XMir or harnessing Mir directly."

                                You continually parrot the same old crap over and over like a broken record. If folk wish to use Mir or Wayland in their DE they can choose to do so .
                                It matters not if Mir is a benefit over x or Wayland, it's simply another option, not the end of the world like you make it out to be.

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