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  • #91
    Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
    Err... Workstations are desktop computers...

    Both Steam and XBMC have far more Linux users than workstation software have. Wake up! Nvidia and AMD will provide their graphics to the most used desktop OS. In Linux that's Ubuntu, no contest. Wayland might be the darling of the infra-world, but here in the real world, when it comes to desktop Linux, no one cares about what happens outside Ubuntu at all. That includes Nvidia and AMD.

    Come back to this thread in two years and see Wayland proprietary drivers (if they even exist) struggling behind Mir ones. Sure, the "bigger Linux desktop landscape" (the one in the infra-world) might suffer, but no one, including RedHat (who don't give a damn about desktops as they've publicly stated many times), cares.

    Get over it, Ubuntu is the de-facto Linux desktop and whatever Ubuntu does is what anyone interested in Linux desktop COMMERCIALLY will follow.
    There's so many things wrong with that that I don't know where to start. How about learning some facts before you come here spouting rhetoric?

    Firstly, Ubuntu covers about a third of desktop Linux installations. That means that majority of desktop Linux users use something other than Ubuntu. Even on Steam, Ubuntu doesn't have the majority of users. Ubuntu may have the biggest single market share of any distro, when talking about home users desktop installations, but that means nothing.

    Meanwhile, Nvidia/AMD don't really care about Steam or any of that, not at this point anyway. Maybe in the future when the market grows, with steamboxes and other Linux consoles coming to market, but right now? The real Linux money for GPU makers is in render farms and workstations. That means mostly RHEL, Suse, and the like. Not Ubuntu. RHEL will use Wayland, so when the render farms move over to Wayland, at that point, Nvidia & AMD at the very least are going to offer drivers for them. They'll have to, there's just no question about it.

    Secondly, there's not going to be any "Mir drivers". There will only be EGL drivers, which can be used by both Mir and Wayland. Mir is not going to ever be used by anyone other than Canonical, because no other desktop environment is willing to adapt it, they're all going to Wayland instead. There are very good reasons for this, you could ask the KDE devs, such as Martin GršŖlin about them, or you could ask the GNOME devs, read their blogs or whatever. But it boils down to the fact that Canonical is developing Mir for the needs of Unity only. They are not thinking about other distros or desktops. They're not creating a stable protocol, they're not enabling others to reimplement Mir for themselves, they control the development and do it all in-house, without collaborating with others. This all is contrary to what Wayland does: Wayland provides a way for everyone to implement their own compositors, while providing a stable protocol, compatibility, and a development model that caters to the needs of every distro and desktop environment.

    Thirdly, even in the extremely unlikely situation that the GPU makers would only offer "Mir drivers" (which, again, will not happen), but even if it did... it wouldn't matter, because Wayland supports multiple backends and runs on pretty much anything, all you have to do is implement the backend. It can already run on EGL, Android drivers, or plain CPU rendering (Pixman). It would be pretty much trivial to write a Wayland backend to allow it to run on those "Mir drivers" (which, again, will not happen).

    Fourthly, Mir is a totally useless waste of resources. There's nothing it offers that Wayland doesn't. There are no technical reasons for its existence whatsoever. The only reason it exists is because Canonical wants to separate Ubuntu from other Linux systems. That's pretty much shooting themselves in the foot, as an OS that is 99% dependent on community-written code, meaning that if the community suffers, Ubuntu suffers also.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
      That market (Linux workstation desktops) is minuscule in absolute numbers. No "big cash" whatsoever. That "big cash" is made on Windows workstations. Both AMD and Nvidia make A LOT MORE MONEY on gaming cards than workstation cards. In spite of the price of workstation cards, the volume in consumer cards is orders of magnitude bigger.

      EDIT: Some numbers: http://jonpeddie.com/publications/workstation_report/ (around 1 million workstation graphics card sold during first quarter, that probably means about 20 million consumer cards sold in the same period). http://www.anandtech.com/show/6137/t...eview-part-1/3, consumer cards make roughly three times as much money. The volume is probably about 20 times bigger for consumer cards. I haven't found any data yet about Linux market share in both markets, but you'll see that it's highly unlikely that Mir will be used outside the workstation market. Moreover, since the workstation market is mature and the consumer Linux market is just starting to grow (games), the picture couldn't look rosier for Mir, at the expense of Wayland.

      EDIT2: More numbers: http://www.softpanorama.org/Articles...stations.shtml Funny enough, Ubuntu also reigns in the workstation market (three times as much as Fedora+Suse together...). Time to revise some myths?
      Can't edit my post anymore. I was meaning Wayland where I said Mir in the sentence marked in bold. After finding data about the workstation OS market share, the chances of Wayland surviving outside the hobbyist market look quite slim. I wouldn't be surprised if Red Hat was forced (by hardware manufacturers) to go with Mir in some distant future... If not, it's certain both Mir and Wayland will coexist.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by dee. View Post
        There's so many things wrong with that that I don't know where to start. How about learning some facts before you come here spouting rhetoric?

        Firstly, Ubuntu covers about a third of desktop Linux installations. That means that majority of desktop Linux users use something other than Ubuntu. Even on Steam, Ubuntu doesn't have the majority of users. Ubuntu may have the biggest single market share of any distro, when talking about home users desktop installations, but that means nothing.

        Meanwhile, Nvidia/AMD don't really care about Steam or any of that, not at this point anyway. Maybe in the future when the market grows, with steamboxes and other Linux consoles coming to market, but right now? The real Linux money for GPU makers is in render farms and workstations. That means mostly RHEL, Suse, and the like. Not Ubuntu. RHEL will use Wayland, so when the render farms move over to Wayland, at that point, Nvidia & AMD at the very least are going to offer drivers for them. They'll have to, there's just no question about it.

        Secondly, there's not going to be any "Mir drivers". There will only be EGL drivers, which can be used by both Mir and Wayland. Mir is not going to ever be used by anyone other than Canonical, because no other desktop environment is willing to adapt it, they're all going to Wayland instead. There are very good reasons for this, you could ask the KDE devs, such as Martin GršŖlin about them, or you could ask the GNOME devs, read their blogs or whatever. But it boils down to the fact that Canonical is developing Mir for the needs of Unity only. They are not thinking about other distros or desktops. They're not creating a stable protocol, they're not enabling others to reimplement Mir for themselves, they control the development and do it all in-house, without collaborating with others. This all is contrary to what Wayland does: Wayland provides a way for everyone to implement their own compositors, while providing a stable protocol, compatibility, and a development model that caters to the needs of every distro and desktop environment.

        Thirdly, even in the extremely unlikely situation that the GPU makers would only offer "Mir drivers" (which, again, will not happen), but even if it did... it wouldn't matter, because Wayland supports multiple backends and runs on pretty much anything, all you have to do is implement the backend. It can already run on EGL, Android drivers, or plain CPU rendering (Pixman). It would be pretty much trivial to write a Wayland backend to allow it to run on those "Mir drivers" (which, again, will not happen).

        Fourthly, Mir is a totally useless waste of resources. There's nothing it offers that Wayland doesn't. There are no technical reasons for its existence whatsoever. The only reason it exists is because Canonical wants to separate Ubuntu from other Linux systems. That's pretty much shooting themselves in the foot, as an OS that is 99% dependent on community-written code, meaning that if the community suffers, Ubuntu suffers also.
        Blah, blah, blah... Post some sources like I've done. They support my view, not yours. So if you don't know "where to start", I suggest Google.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
          From "what you've seen"? Now THAT is a joke. Bring some sources. Check mine in the above edited post.
          nice source

          Linux 13.6 %
          Ubuntu 1.7 %
          Suse 0.2 %
          Red Hat 0.4 %
          Fedora 0.3 %
          Debian 0.1 %
          Centos 0.3 %
          Google Android 0.5 %
          GNU Linux (Unknown or unspecified distribution) 9.7 %

          Ubuntu's is even bigger joke in this Market 1.7% LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
            Both AMD and Nvidia make A LOT MORE MONEY on gaming cards than workstation cards. In spite of the price of workstation cards, the volume in consumer cards is orders of magnitude bigger.
            Pretty much nobody buys gaming cards for Linux, including Ubuntu.

            Nvidia has flat-out stated that they only care about Linux workstations, and that the only reason they release Linux desktop drivers because it doesn't take any additional work for them to do so. I trust their opinion on their own business much more than I trust you.

            Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
            http://www.anandtech.com/show/6137/t...eview-part-1/3, consumer cards make roughly three times as much money. The volume is probably about 20 times bigger for consumer cards.
            Did you even read the article? It makes the exact opposite point you are claiming.

            "The biggest reason that the professional graphics market is of great importance to NVIDIA and AMD isnít just that itís another market for them to sell products in, but because itís not just another market. As we alluded to in our introduction, going by the volume of products shipped the professional graphics market is tiny. Even looking at revenue itís far smaller than the consumer market. But what revenue hints at and what financial statements prove is that itís profitable. Extremely profitable."

            Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
            Moreover, since the workstation market is mature and the consumer Linux market is just starting to grow (games), the picture couldn't look rosier for Mir, at the expense of Wayland.
            What? That might be useful for some start-up, but for established companies that isn't going to make them change their mind. They have clients right now that they need to satisfy, and those clients will use Wayland.

            EDIT2: More numbers: http://www.softpanorama.org/Articles...stations.shtml Funny enough, Ubuntu also reigns in the workstation market (three times as much as Fedora+Suse together...). Time to revise some myths?
            Wait, you are relying on web hit statistics to measure the workstation market? Do you even know what a workstation is?

            And again, the article actually makes the exact opposite point you are claiming: "Usually only Red Hat and/or Suse are certified for the usage in large corporate environment (lately Ubuntu joined them in some corporations)."

            In fact, Ubuntu has been intentionally snubbing workstations, cutting out things like GIMP explicitly because they are important for workstations but not for consumer desktops.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
              nice source

              Linux 13.6 %
              Ubuntu 1.7 %
              Suse 0.2 %
              Red Hat 0.4 %
              Fedora 0.3 %
              Debian 0.1 %
              Centos 0.3 %
              Google Android 0.5 %
              GNU Linux (Unknown or unspecified distribution) 9.7 %

              Ubuntu's is even bigger joke in this Market 1.7% LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
              Err... This market was supposed to be ran by Suse and Redhat. I guess your name being "LinuxGamer" makes you somehow unable to understand anything but games...?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                Pretty much nobody buys gaming cards for Linux, including Ubuntu.

                Nvidia has flat-out stated that they only care about Linux workstations, and that the only reason they release Linux desktop drivers because it doesn't take any additional work for them to do so. I trust their opinion on their own business much more than I trust you.


                Did you even read the article? It makes the exact opposite point you are claiming.

                "The biggest reason that the professional graphics market is of great importance to NVIDIA and AMD isnít just that itís another market for them to sell products in, but because itís not just another market. As we alluded to in our introduction, going by the volume of products shipped the professional graphics market is tiny. Even looking at revenue itís far smaller than the consumer market. But what revenue hints at and what financial statements prove is that itís profitable. Extremely profitable."


                What? That might be useful for some start-up, but for established companies that isn't going to make them change their mind. They have clients right now that they need to satisfy, and those clients will use Wayland.


                Wait, you are relying on web hit statistics to measure the workstation market? Do you even know what a workstation is?

                And again, the article actually makes the exact opposite point you are claiming: "Usually only Red Hat and/or Suse are certified for the usage in large corporate environment (lately Ubuntu joined them in some corporations)."

                In fact, Ubuntu has been intentionally snubbing workstations, cutting out things like GIMP explicitly because they are important for workstations but not for consumer desktops.
                I still can't see any numbers... I've been using and manufacturing workstations for about 20 years, so I guess, yes, I know what a workstation is, but thanks for posting your opinions without a single number or source backing them up.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                  I still can't see any numbers... I've been using and manufacturing workstations for about 20 years, so I guess, yes, I know what a workstation is, but thanks for posting your opinions without a single number or source backing them up.
                  I notice you completely ignored all of my points. Care to actually respond to what I said?

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                    I notice you completely ignored all of my points. Care to actually respond to what I said?
                    Why should I care about your personal impressions on both gaming and workstation markets? As I said, bring some sources and numbers.

                    BTW, I don't know if it was you or someone else who said drivers don't deal with Mir or Wayland directly. If that's the case and drivers will target both display managers at the same time no matter what, who the hell cares? If this is not true and Nvidia/AMD have to make a decision, I'm positive they'll support what becomes more popular IN THE REAL WORLD, not in linux-geeks-land. That's Mir, obviously.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                      Why should I care about your personal impressions on both gaming and workstation markets? As I said, bring some sources and numbers.
                      There are no such numbers. You haven't provided any relevant numbers, either, but you didn't read any of the sources you linked to close enough to realize this, or to realize that the sources contradict your position. The closest thing to evidence you have posted is an anti-Linux rant that claims that most businesses forbid the use of Ubuntu, they demand RHEL or Suse (the exact opposite of what you are claiming).

                      Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                      If this is not true and Nvidia/AMD have to make a decision, I'm positive they'll support what becomes more popular IN THE REAL WORLD, not in linux-geeks-land. That's Mir, obviously.
                      No, they will support what will make them the most profit. They are corporations, they care about making a profit. If they will gain (or lose) more profit based on their wayland support than their mir support (which is in line with their own statements about where their money comes from), then they will support wayland. And vice versus. Popularity contests only matter with geeks, and revenue only matters to people who don't understand basic economics, what matters to corporations is profit.
                      Last edited by TheBlackCat; 07-25-2013, 01:24 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                        There are no such numbers. You haven't provided any relevant numbers, either, but you didn't read any of the sources you linked to close enough to realize this, or to realize that the sources contradict your position.
                        Yes I did. I can interpret numbers myself, thanks and Anandtech's opinion don't contradict anything. Again, what YOU consider relevant or not is totally irrelevant for ME or market analysts.


                        No, they will support what will make them the most money. They are corporations, they care about making money. If they will gain (or lose) more money based on their wayland support than their mir support (which is in line with their own statements about where their money comes from), then they will support wayland. And vice versus. Popularity contests only matter with geeks, what matters to corporations is money. And those are not necessarily very closely related.
                        "Most popular" and "what makes most money" coincide here. It doesn't matter in the least what companies say at a given point. If Ubuntu proves to be more popular both for gamers and workstation users, hardware manufacturers will simply follow. This is so obvious I shouldn't be even writing it.

                        Still unable to find sources for your claims?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                          Err... This market was supposed to be ran by Suse and Redhat. I guess your name being "LinuxGamer" makes you somehow unable to understand anything but games...?
                          when i say workstations i'm talking about "Enterprise" Linux Etc most of them dont even have intelnet... and even World of Warcraft Servers run RHEL too
                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workstation

                          you call a shitty desktop from Walmart a workstation ohh wait Walmart runs SUSE... damn

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                            when i say workstations i'm talking about "Enterprise" Linux Etc most of them dont even have intelnet... and even World of Warcraft Servers run RHEL too
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workstation

                            you call a shitty desktop from Walmart a workstation ohh wait Walmart runs SUSE... damn
                            Exactly, but ubuntu fanboys doesn't recognize it never hahahah

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                              Yes I did. I can interpret numbers myself, thanks
                              All evidence to the contrary, since you posted web site hit statistics by OS claiming it was workstation market share. They didn't even try to count workstations (unless you think there are android workstations somewhere).

                              Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                              and Anandtech's opinion don't contradict anything.
                              It explicitly contradicts your claim that Ubuntu is more popular for enterprise.

                              Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                              "Most popular" and "what makes most money" coincide here.
                              You need to provide some evidence to back this up. Your own link says the exact opposite. Selling a large number of products with a tiny profit margin will not necessarily win out against selling a smaller number with huge profit margins.

                              Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                              It doesn't matter in the least what companies say at a given point.
                              Right, I am sure you know Nvidia's business much better than Nvidia does.

                              Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                              If Ubuntu proves to be more popular both for gamers and workstation users, hardware manufacturers will simply follow. This is so obvious I shouldn't be even writing it.
                              Yes, but you have yet to establish any evidence whatsoever that Ubuntu has any meaningful presence for workstations. Considering they have made the explicit decision to exclude workstations and workstation-orientated software, I think you have an uphill battle there.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Aleve Sicofante View Post
                                "Most popular" and "what makes most money" coincide here. It doesn't matter in the least what companies say at a given point. If Ubuntu proves to be more popular both for gamers and workstation users, hardware manufacturers will simply follow. This is so obvious I shouldn't be even writing it.
                                "What make the most money" is a great point to think about here. Lets just say Ubuntu finally starts to make a decent amount of money on the desktop and finally starts to become a leader in Linux technlogies by way of Mir, Upstart, etc Ubuntu starts stealing large numbers of Workstation clients from RatHat what do you really think is going to happen?
                                On one side you have a company in RedHat that generates over billion dollars (and growing rapidly) in revenue and is seen have a as the current leader in Linux based technologies (a title I'm sure they are keen to retain) which buys up two or three companys every year for tens to hundreds of millinons of dollars, on the other side you have a private company begging for $32 million from the public to produce a technology they are calling their future.
                                Those who as calling Ubuntu "the" Linux distrobution need a serious reality check. If Ubuntu ever truely becomes a Linux leader with exclusive control over essential Linux technologies via its CLA's I dont think RedHat would just sit by and say well we had a good run. Enterprise linux is where the money is, its what the hardware companies care about, and RedHat is the market leader not Ubuntu.

                                Edit: And as far as Steam goes they are using Ubuntu now because it has good numbers but Steam on Linux is really only a testbed for their own Steambox. When it comes to Steam/Games and Wayland/Mir the deciding factor will be what Valve uses in the Steam box not what Ubuntu uses. Those calling Wayland vs Mir a geek war should know the guys at value are geeks, and I'm sure they will use what is the most stable and has the best performance. Which one they will choose nobody knows but one thing is for sure Valve is looking out for Valve not for Canonical.
                                Last edited by timothyja; 07-25-2013, 06:26 PM.

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