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Canonical Posts X.Org, Driver Patches For XMir

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  • #46
    Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
    its just a recode of Gnome its not that hard to make "Unity" do to 98% of it being Gnome look at what Linux Mint has done using Gnome + we have most of the code base we just need to wait for Gnome to be fully ported to Wayland you don't even need compiz using wayland
    Not that easy - Unity 8 (the one that runs natively on Mir) will be rewritten to use Qt instead of GTK and will no longer be GNOME-based. Even the current Unity 7, while it's indeed based on GNOME, the actual UI is dependent of Compiz, which is pretty much a dead project insofar that it no longer has any plans of being ported to Wayland.

    Thus, you'd either need to fork Compiz + current Unity and implement Wayland support for Compiz, then rebase the whole thing to GNOME+Wayland (not an easy task either, as GNOME has a bad habit of breaking stuff between point releases) and since the current version of Unity will be end-of-line once Canonical moves to Mir, you'd have to maintain the codebase all by yourself. Or you'd need to rebase the current Unity 7 to use some other compositor, other than Compiz, which supports Wayland. Or, you'd need to take the newer Unity 8 and port it to Wayland, somehow.

    Incidentally, Mint/Cinnamon is also moving away from GNOME - Cinnamon 2.0 is supposed to be entirely independent from a GNOME base.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by dee. View Post
      Not that easy - Unity 8 (the one that runs natively on Mir) will be rewritten to use Qt instead of GTK and will no longer be GNOME-based. Even the current Unity 7, while it's indeed based on GNOME, the actual UI is dependent of Compiz, which is pretty much a dead project insofar that it no longer has any plans of being ported to Wayland.

      Thus, you'd either need to fork Compiz + current Unity and implement Wayland support for Compiz, then rebase the whole thing to GNOME+Wayland (not an easy task either, as GNOME has a bad habit of breaking stuff between point releases) and since the current version of Unity will be end-of-line once Canonical moves to Mir, you'd have to maintain the codebase all by yourself. Or you'd need to rebase the current Unity 7 to use some other compositor, other than Compiz, which supports Wayland. Or, you'd need to take the newer Unity 8 and port it to Wayland, somehow.

      Incidentally, Mint/Cinnamon is also moving away from GNOME - Cinnamon 2.0 is supposed to be entirely independent from a GNOME base.
      i have done a lot of DE work in the pasted given you dont have to use Compiz to make a DE look use like Unity and QT has full support for Wayland so if needed you can change maybe 300 to 2k lines of code to make it work on Wayland i forgot who did it but some one taken Gnome 3 and made a Unity looking DE out of it and just a few days

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      • #48
        Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
        DDX drivers are very specific to X.org, IIRC, and the other option would be writing drivers from scratch, something I don't think they are capable of right now.
        That's a concern I have in general with both Wayland and Mir, how will they get 2D acceleration. I don't think glamor is the best approach (this would be the obvious guess, since it uses OpenGL which is exposed by mesa/closed source drivers), since it actually uses 3D operations to emulate 2D, thus wasting 2D capabilities on cards and is actually slower than real 2D in some cases, as when it's compared to SNA for Intel.
        well just a little fix here, no modern GPU have dedicated 2D silicon anymore including intel and they all use 3D silicon to emulate the old 2D silicon.

        Exa, Uxa, SNA are just specific acceleration architectures for X.org specific operations done in the 3D engine using specific GPU code while Glamor do the same with a higher level GPU agnostic language aka OpenGL but they all basically uses the 3D engine one way or the other

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        • #49
          Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
          well just a little fix here, no modern GPU have dedicated 2D silicon anymore including intel and they all use 3D silicon to emulate the old 2D silicon.

          Exa, Uxa, SNA are just specific acceleration architectures for X.org specific operations done in the 3D engine using specific GPU code while Glamor do the same with a higher level GPU agnostic language aka OpenGL but they all basically uses the 3D engine one way or the other
          Well, this releases most of the concern. However, could an API be made for doing such operations more direct for Wayland (and not *in* Wayland, since doing so kind of beats the purpose of Wayland not doing things it shouldn't) and Mir? Something like a 2D aimed OpenGL? Does OpenVG suit this idea?

          EDIT: I wanted to add to my previous post that in XMir (or XWayland), since X is the one drawing to the buffer, we need to adapt the drivers to work with the GPU even when running inside of another display server, so you are not crippled to only use software drawing. Kind of forgot the whole point of why to modify the drivers after all, in my previous post.
          Last edited by mrugiero; 07-23-2013, 06:02 PM.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
            Well, this releases most of the concern. However, could an API be made for doing such operations more direct for Wayland (and not *in* Wayland, since doing so kind of beats the purpose of Wayland not doing things it shouldn't) and Mir? Something like a 2D aimed OpenGL? Does OpenVG suit this idea?
            well wayland is a close to the hardware as you can get without using TGSI or GPU ASM so basically there is no need at all and in the case of XWayland you can probably still use existing methods with a simpleish bypass or simply use your favorite languages like OpenVG, OpenGL, OpenGL ES 1,2,3, Pixman, Cairo, etc.

            the point is Wayland is not a Process/Server like Mir is a simple protocol library that actually do nothing except give you a language to initialize the GPU to a workable state after that you can basically manipulate the GPU as you wish with no middleman, so in theory intel could use SNA with XWayland directly like with Xorg.

            my only doubt is if Xorg itself allows so and if both Xorg and Wayland can access the GPU in parallel without sync issue, it shouldn't be a problem in theory since XWayland will be rootless but still maybe someone closer to XWayland and Xorg can provide a more deep insight

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            • #51
              in the case of Mir/XMir is nothing more that witchcraft to say since Mir is an actual server like X11ish and the API is too inmature for sure but i guess from what is technically known that XMir will be more invasive to drivers than XWayland and probably less performant, maybe in 6 months would be easier to discern[assuming is actually finished at all ofc]

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              • #52
                Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                i have done a lot of DE work in the pasted given you dont have to use Compiz to make a DE look use like Unity and QT has full support for Wayland so if needed you can change maybe 300 to 2k lines of code to make it work on Wayland i forgot who did it but some one taken Gnome 3 and made a Unity looking DE out of it and just a few days
                Well sure, you can take pretty much any configurable DE that has some sort of dock, and configure it to behave like Unity, more or less - but then we're no longer talking about porting Unity to Wayland, we're talking about emulating the UI on an entirely different DE, and it's not the same thing.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                  well wayland is a close to the hardware as you can get without using TGSI or GPU ASM so basically there is no need at all and in the case of XWayland you can probably still use existing methods with a simpleish bypass or simply use your favorite languages like OpenVG, OpenGL, OpenGL ES 1,2,3, Pixman, Cairo, etc.

                  the point is Wayland is not a Process/Server like Mir is a simple protocol library that actually do nothing except give you a language to initialize the GPU to a workable state after that you can basically manipulate the GPU as you wish with no middleman, so in theory intel could use SNA with XWayland directly like with Xorg.

                  my only doubt is if Xorg itself allows so and if both Xorg and Wayland can access the GPU in parallel without sync issue, it shouldn't be a problem in theory since XWayland will be rootless but still maybe someone closer to XWayland and Xorg can provide a more deep insight
                  What I meant is if there is an API that is close to hardware and does the kind of operations X.org did before, but to use without X.org (so you can use it with Wayland and Mir); I'm aware Wayland does few aside of buffer management. But I already read a bit on OpenVG, and seems to do this kind of basic operation.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                    What I meant is if there is an API that is close to hardware and does the kind of operations X.org did before, but to use without X.org (so you can use it with Wayland and Mir); I'm aware Wayland does few aside of buffer management. But I already read a bit on OpenVG, and seems to do this kind of basic operation.
                    as an official replace nope, Xorg acceleration is basically XRender and other extension using GPU specific path to provide accel and kinda unique to X, the closest would be Opengl since OpenVG is more for vectorial graphics. in the case of XWayland is very likely the normal Xorg accel paths[UXA, EXA, SNA] keep working hence no need of translation layer even Glamor should do.

                    For Mir no one knows how will handle things or if they would need a full translation

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                      i don't get how they're saying any thing is "stable" when it's not even Developed....
                      ditto

                      Originally posted by synaptix View Post
                      Wayland is for the entire Linux community, 100% progression for Linux. Almost all of the major distros (except Ubuntu) and DE's support Wayland.

                      Mir is for Ubuntu/Unity, fragmentation and reverse progression for Linux. The only ones supporting Mir is Canonical.
                      ding ding ding, this sums up the thread, key word: fragmentation, what Canonical is good at, I too hope this crap gets rejected, to hell with Canonical.

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                      • #56
                        Still no reply to these patches. Canonical looks like the unpopular kid at school nobody wants to play with.

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                        • #57
                          The answers were on IRC (#dri-devel).

                          There is a log, you can look at it.

                          EDIT: http://people.freedesktop.org/~cbril...ate=2013-07-22
                          look at RAOF.


                          There may be other channels where they have discussed of it.
                          Last edited by mannerov; 07-24-2013, 05:40 AM.

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