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Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win

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  • Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
    Just your usual Canonical haters want to reinterpret everything.
    Reminds me of FOX news watchers.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
      thats an SDK, Wayland need's KMS (EPIC WIN if it get's supported) and Supported EGL extension's in the Driver

      http://wayland.freedesktop.org
      Wayland does not require KMS. You can use other types of modesetting.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by dh04000 View Post
        How is this a PR answer?

        Some Guy: Linus, will the kernel go closed source at some point? (By god, the money he'd make if he did.)
        Linus: The kernel is open source - GPL - just like pretty much everything we do.

        Seems reasonable to me...... I think its PR only in your head.

        Plus, how is GPL software going closed? AFAIK, the license prevents already GPL'd software from changing to non-GPL licenses.
        Have to agree with that. However, Canonical (and only Canonical, except in the case all of the contributors agree on that) can sublicense, which is additionally release the software under another license, but this is not retroactive. The consequence would be that they can make closed derivatives, while nobody else can (the only difference with having it under the MIT license is that the latter allows anyone to do the same thing).

        Comment


        • Does anyone here even read the source code??

          There my post says it. But lets educate everyone here a little.

          Firstly, Wayland is only a protocol, nothing more really. It specifies, essentially, the following:

          1) How a program (a wayland client) requests offscreen buffers from the compositor
          2) various messages to say "present" this buffer
          3) some message protocol for events

          There is the reference compositor Weston. Now how those buffers are created and how they are drawn to is a function of the system, the integration and the compositor. Nothing more. Over on the RasberryPi, there is a compositor that uses the display controller to present the window contents (i.e not even using OpenGL or OpenGL ES). What is key for a Wayland based system to get performance is that the buffers written to are the buffers being presented. A dumb, slow as molasses, implementation will make the buffers generic shared memory and the compositor would use glTexSubimage2D to upload the image data to GL. That is terrible and one of the worst ways to get the job done, and yet it is done in some places. Shudders.

          Over on freedesktop.org there is an EGL extension written up for this buffer image sharing, note that the extension is not in the OpenGL ES registry though. This is not really a big deal, but what is important is this: any system using Wayland needs to have a means to allocate cross-process image buffers where a client (program) writes to it and the server (Wayland compositor) draws them. That is it. Nothing more.

          On the issue of Mir. The main stink for Canonical for Wayland was event handling. In a nutshell, Wayland did not have a rich enough system for user events. If you take a look at http://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/, you will see that Wayland's event system is lacking and not particularly rich. There was a long blab on the Wiki of Mir about the why, it was not a NIH issue, there were serious concerns with respect to input.

          Going on, I noticed a comment about OpenGL being too linked/reliant on X to use with Wayland. Epically wrong. The main issue is creating a GL context. Now, for X, one uses GLX (gee). However, EGL has a provision to create OpenGL (not just OpenGL ES) contexts as well.

          The post about memory consumption was a waste of bytes. Indeed, those numbers are so much tinier than how much RAM is on the system as to not worth noting; the real issue to look at is how much bandwidth does each system consume. That is where the real action with respect to performance is. On embedded systems, X has worked. Indeed both the N900 and N9 from Nokia have X. I do not think it was a good idea, but it did work and memory consumption was kept reasonable. The main stinks for X are the following:

          1) making good X.org drivers is a royal pain. Getting accelerated compositing working is another royal pain.
          2) X does lots of things, and in truth using X to get anything done is painful. It's input APIs suck, it's window API's suck, it has lots of API's that all suck to use
          3) and yet, most application draw all their content themselves (be it via Cairo, Qt, whatever) and do not use Xlib to draw anything. All they want is a surface to which to draw and a way to grab events

          Looking at the above, one sees that all one needs is something to allocate image buffers, notify on what buffer to present and to receive events. Wayland did the first fine, but the events just are not rich enough.

          At any rate, on desktop, the only player in Linux land that can get us out of X is Canonical. They are the only ones with enough clout to convince IHV's (namely NVIDIA and AMD/ATI) to make it possible to create GL contexts and such without X. Wayland has been around for several years now, and still nothing has been made for it that is used a great deal. My thinking of the why is essentially those folks are not in a position to push it to the correct people at the correct IHV's. There is a place for Wayland on embedded devices, but in truth for mobile, Android and iOS rule it... Maemo/Meego/Tizen look pathetic... there are some Tizen devices out there, but I am not impressed with Tizen at all.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
            Wayland does not require KMS. You can use other types of modesetting.
            Like?
            you talking about Xwayland?

            DRM output (without X) requires Kernel Mode Setting (KMS) and the page flip ioctl
            http://wayland.freedesktop.org/building.html

            Comment


            • Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
              Like?
              you talking about Xwayland?



              http://wayland.freedesktop.org/building.html
              That's how weston implemented its drm output, but wayland does not require it.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by dh04000
                How is this a PR answer?
                Seems reasonable to me...... I think its PR only in your head.

                Plus, how is GPL software going closed? AFAIK, the license prevents already GPL'd software from changing to non-GPL licenses.
                As I understood the question, they could at some point stop developing it under GPL, say make mir2 closed source (which would not change anything for previous code). It may be a misunderstanding on my part, but that is what I thought was the question. What I meant with PR speak, then - why is the answer not just "we have no plans going closed source with mir, it will always be GPL just like pretty much everything we do?" What is the problem with properly addressing the question (which was "do you have plans to go closed source at some point")? It is a general beef I have with communication in politics, with corporate statements etc. It makes me suspicious. If I misunderstood the license things and saying "it is GPL" means "we will never go closed source at some point", fair enough.

                (actually I believe the "fear" of Canonical taking mir closed source is stupid - why would they do that? I can think of no benefits of such a move)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by LinuxGamer View Post
                  Like?
                  you talking about Xwayland?



                  http://wayland.freedesktop.org/building.html
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...V2d-XM#t=2154s

                  36:35

                  Comment


                  • Thanks!

                    But that means that proprietary drivers would not run on compositors which require KMS.
                    So either there will be other compositors which won't depend on KMS or AMD/Nvidia/etc will
                    need to add support for KMS (is that actually possible? GPL symbols, etc.).

                    And yes, I know that the blobs all do kernel modesetting, but here KMS refers to the
                    internal Linux KMS API which is not supported by the blobs.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by kRogue View Post
                      On the issue of Mir. The main stink for Canonical for Wayland was event handling. In a nutshell, Wayland did not have a rich enough system for user events. If you take a look at http://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/, you will see that Wayland's event system is lacking and not particularly rich. There was a long blab on the Wiki of Mir about the why, it was not a NIH issue, there were serious concerns with respect to input.
                      Yes, serious concerns, no one said they didn't have a few real issues with Wayland... that doesn't justify them secretly developing their own DS for 9 months instead of attempting to work out their event-protocol concerns with the Wayland devs (in an attempt to not fragment the second most important part of the linux-desktop ecosystem), and then reveal theirs with BS claims about Wayland not being up to par. That is why people claim NIH syndrome.. cause it's probably true.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by kRogue View Post
                        There my post says it. But lets educate everyone here a little.

                        Firstly, Wayland is only a protocol, nothing more really. It specifies, essentially, the following:

                        1) How a program (a wayland client) requests offscreen buffers from the compositor
                        2) various messages to say "present" this buffer
                        3) some message protocol for events

                        There is the reference compositor Weston. Now how those buffers are created and how they are drawn to is a function of the system, the integration and the compositor. Nothing more. Over on the RasberryPi, there is a compositor that uses the display controller to present the window contents (i.e not even using OpenGL or OpenGL ES). What is key for a Wayland based system to get performance is that the buffers written to are the buffers being presented. A dumb, slow as molasses, implementation will make the buffers generic shared memory and the compositor would use glTexSubimage2D to upload the image data to GL. That is terrible and one of the worst ways to get the job done, and yet it is done in some places. Shudders.

                        Over on freedesktop.org there is an EGL extension written up for this buffer image sharing, note that the extension is not in the OpenGL ES registry though. This is not really a big deal, but what is important is this: any system using Wayland needs to have a means to allocate cross-process image buffers where a client (program) writes to it and the server (Wayland compositor) draws them. That is it. Nothing more.

                        On the issue of Mir. The main stink for Canonical for Wayland was event handling. In a nutshell, Wayland did not have a rich enough system for user events. If you take a look at http://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/, you will see that Wayland's event system is lacking and not particularly rich. There was a long blab on the Wiki of Mir about the why, it was not a NIH issue, there were serious concerns with respect to input.

                        Going on, I noticed a comment about OpenGL being too linked/reliant on X to use with Wayland. Epically wrong. The main issue is creating a GL context. Now, for X, one uses GLX (gee). However, EGL has a provision to create OpenGL (not just OpenGL ES) contexts as well.

                        The post about memory consumption was a waste of bytes. Indeed, those numbers are so much tinier than how much RAM is on the system as to not worth noting; the real issue to look at is how much bandwidth does each system consume. That is where the real action with respect to performance is. On embedded systems, X has worked. Indeed both the N900 and N9 from Nokia have X. I do not think it was a good idea, but it did work and memory consumption was kept reasonable. The main stinks for X are the following:

                        1) making good X.org drivers is a royal pain. Getting accelerated compositing working is another royal pain.
                        2) X does lots of things, and in truth using X to get anything done is painful. It's input APIs suck, it's window API's suck, it has lots of API's that all suck to use
                        3) and yet, most application draw all their content themselves (be it via Cairo, Qt, whatever) and do not use Xlib to draw anything. All they want is a surface to which to draw and a way to grab events

                        Looking at the above, one sees that all one needs is something to allocate image buffers, notify on what buffer to present and to receive events. Wayland did the first fine, but the events just are not rich enough.

                        At any rate, on desktop, the only player in Linux land that can get us out of X is Canonical. They are the only ones with enough clout to convince IHV's (namely NVIDIA and AMD/ATI) to make it possible to create GL contexts and such without X. Wayland has been around for several years now, and still nothing has been made for it that is used a great deal. My thinking of the why is essentially those folks are not in a position to push it to the correct people at the correct IHV's. There is a place for Wayland on embedded devices, but in truth for mobile, Android and iOS rule it... Maemo/Meego/Tizen look pathetic... there are some Tizen devices out there, but I am not impressed with Tizen at all.
                        Now you sound like a Canonical Developer or Mark http://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/ is not Source Code...... ohh look at the Date the Wayland open-source community November 2012

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by kRogue View Post
                          On the issue of Mir. The main stink for Canonical for Wayland was event handling. In a nutshell, Wayland did not have a rich enough system for user events. If you take a look at http://wayland.freedesktop.org/docs/html/, you will see that Wayland's event system is lacking and not particularly rich. There was a long blab on the Wiki of Mir about the why, it was not a NIH issue, there were serious concerns with respect to input.
                          Two issues here:

                          1. They could have discussed these issues with the Wayland devs to see if improvements could have been made
                          2. They could have just used their own extensions (Wayland supports extensions) rather than starting over from scratch

                          Originally posted by kRogue View Post
                          Going on, I noticed a comment about OpenGL being too linked/reliant on X to use with Wayland. Epically wrong. The main issue is creating a GL context. Now, for X, one uses GLX (gee). However, EGL has a provision to create OpenGL (not just OpenGL ES) contexts as well.
                          That is not what the wayland website says:
                          http://wayland.freedesktop.org/faq.h...ading_toc_j_12

                          Originally posted by kRogue View Post
                          At any rate, on desktop, the only player in Linux land that can get us out of X is Canonical. They are the only ones with enough clout to convince IHV's (namely NVIDIA and AMD/ATI) to make it possible to create GL contexts and such without X.
                          Baloney, as has been explained over and over and over again. NVidia and AMD/ATI care almost exclusively about workstations for Linux. That is where essentially all of their revenue comes from (that and high-performance computing). And those use RHEL (and derivatives) and SLES almost exclusively. And both RHEL and SLES are already dedicated to Wayland. If it was only for desktop distros like Ubuntu, we almost certainly wouldn't have NVidia or AMD/ATI providing drivers at all. There just isn't any money right now in desktop Linux, but there is a lot of money in workstations.

                          Originally posted by kRogue View Post
                          Wayland has been around for several years now, and still nothing has been made for it that is used a great deal. My thinking of the why is essentially those folks are not in a position to push it to the correct people at the correct IHV's.
                          No, the reason is that wayland is not used enough on their core market: workstations. But it will be, and they know it. That is why they are working on improving their EGL support right now, and have been since long before Mir was announced.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                            No, the reason is that wayland is not used enough on their core market: workstations. But it will be, and they know it. That is why they are working on improving their EGL support right now, and have been since long before Mir was announced.
                            and as we know the workstations OS's will not have Wayland support for around 6mo's to year so why get into a rush to get them out?

                            He sounded just like Mark or a Canonical Developer to me

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by F i L View Post
                              Yes, serious concerns, no one said they didn't have a few real issues with Wayland... that doesn't justify them secretly developing their own DS for 9 months instead of attempting to work out their event-protocol concerns with the Wayland devs (in an attempt to not fragment the second most important part of the linux-desktop ecosystem), and then reveal theirs with BS claims about Wayland not being up to par. That is why people claim NIH syndrome.. cause it's probably true.
                              Also, it must be noted that those concerns were real when the decision happened, but were completely false by the time they made the announcement. That's why you communicate your concerns before making decisions.

                              Comment


                              • Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win, it works so well on non intell drivers you can't even log in? you know that maybe the Performance Win so you can wipe your drive and install a real Linux

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