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Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win

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  • #31
    Originally posted by AdamW View Post
    That's funny:

    http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/p...ackageID=11213

    Wayland has been in Fedora since 2010-11-15 . People are running GTK+ apps natively in Wayland on Fedora:

    http://worldofgnome.org/easily-try-g...-in-fedora-19/

    The GNOME Wiki even has the instructions:

    https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/GTK+

    I do find it amazing how willing people are to say things that are so utterly and completely wrong that they could check for themselves with Google and thirty seconds.
    I do find it amazing how unwilling people are to interpret people's words without slanting them heavily to one side or the other. What I said is true, regardless of anything you or anyone else has linked to. The wayland people did not have the power to do a forced beta test like Canonical is doing with Mir. Who cares whether it has been available in repos since the late 17th century or not? Or whether it became fully functional back when men traveled only on horseback? My statement still stands as correct even if both of these (absolutely absurd) statements about the condition of Wayland were true.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by coder543 View Post
      I do find it amazing how unwilling people are to interpret people's words without slanting them heavily to one side or the other. What I said is true, regardless of anything you or anyone else has linked to. The wayland people did not have the power to do a forced beta test like Canonical is doing with Mir. Who cares whether it has been available in repos since the late 17th century or not? Or whether it became fully functional back when men traveled only on horseback? My statement still stands as correct even if both of those statements were true.
      You wrote:

      "No other distro cares enough about Wayland to beta test it for them, so of course it hasn't been pushed out."

      You didn't say anything about "forced".

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by AdamW View Post
        You wrote:

        "No other distro cares enough about Wayland to beta test it for them, so of course it hasn't been pushed out."

        You didn't say anything about "forced".
        If a whole distro is beta testing it, that means the entire distro is switching, by default, to Wayland to "see how it goes". That's what a distro beta testing it is. Canonical is using Ubuntu to beta test Mir. They're not just letting their distro's users beta test it. They are using the distro to beta test it. Do you see the difference in those statements? If the distro is beta testing it, that means all but the most technically minded users (who also don't want to be beta testing it) are testing it too.

        Red Hat has not used Fedora to beta test Wayland. Ever. They've let Fedora users beta test Wayland at their leisure. Red Hat does not care enough about Wayland to beta test it with Fedora.

        English is a subtle language... what I said was very clear, but the way you chose to interpret it was in opposition to the meaning. The distro caring enough about Wayland to beta test it has nothing to do with the users caring enough about Wayland to beta test it.

        I'm sorry if this post seems harsh, but you shouldn't tell anyone they're too lazy to use Google if you're too lazy to interpret their statement correctly. My statement was not ambiguous, unless you're claiming that more than 50% of Fedora users are actively using Wayland to help beta test it. In such a case as that, then the distro is beta testing it by consensus... but that's not the case. It's just a sparse collection of users who are beta testing it.
        Last edited by coder543; 07-09-2013, 03:30 PM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
          Weston? That joke that didn't even have a minimize/maximize button? Hahaha. Is this the best you can do? Because after so many years of 'progress' wayland still seems to be in the dark ages.
          As apposed to what? You do realize that 13.10 is running XMir, right? X11 is doing most everything.. Mir is just setting up displays and flipping backbuffers. Running 13.10 off Mir might be a fine development stepping stone, but don't pretend like it's some great accomplishment when Wayland has been showing much more technically impressive demos for a long time.

          This is why I think Canonical's marketing strategy might actually work... people don't know the difference and they gain from the confusion if they can spin it right.

          Comment


          • #35
            if bo$$ wasn't enough now we have coder543, why canonical threads always bring ppl that have an absolute 0 technical knowledge to do the sad try of justify something they don't even or can understand? this is a technical news forum for god sakes, i don't go to WoW forums to explain why the engine sucks, do i? or why the physics in some skills are wrong, do i?

            michael in the new site make sure the forum allows make downvoted posts invisible or at least block so it doesn't show[could be premium if you want]

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by coder543 View Post
              If a whole distro is beta testing it, that means the entire distro is switching, by default, to Wayland to "see how it goes". That's what a distro beta testing it is. Canonical is using Ubuntu to beta test Mir. They're not just letting their distro's users beta test it. They are using the distro to beta test it. Do you see the difference in those statements? If the distro is beta testing it, that means all but the most technically minded users (who also don't want to be beta testing it) are testing it too.

              Red Hat has not used Fedora to beta test Wayland. Ever. They've let Fedora users beta test Wayland at their leisure. Red Hat does not care enough about Wayland to beta test it with Fedora.

              English is a subtle language... what I said was very clear, but the way you chose to interpret it was in opposition to the meaning. The distro caring enough about Wayland to beta test it has nothing to do with the users caring enough about Wayland to beta test it.

              I'm sorry if this post seems harsh, but you shouldn't tell anyone they're too lazy to use Google if you're too lazy to interpret their statement correctly. My statement was not ambiguous, unless you're claiming that more than 50% of Fedora users are actively using Wayland to help beta test it. In such a case as that, then the distro is beta testing it by consensus... but that's not the case. It's just a sparse collection of users who are beta testing it.
              looking for an appropiated facepalm image, this is just so wrong and retarded the regular ones don't do the trick

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                if bo$$ wasn't enough now we have coder543, why canonical threads always bring ppl that have an absolute 0 technical knowledge to do the sad try of justify something they don't even or can understand? this is a technical news forum for god sakes, i don't go to WoW forums to explain why the engine sucks, do i? or why the physics in some skills are wrong, do i?

                michael in the new site make sure the forum allows make downvoted posts invisible or at least block so it doesn't show[could be premium if you want]
                Please, enlighten me as to my shortcomings. I don't believe I've made a single statement in this forum today that would indicate that I favor Mir or Wayland or Canonical or any particular group, and no one has actually proven any of my statements to be false. Maybe you should be the one downvoted?

                I do not care whether Mir or Wayland end up winning. It seriously does not matter which one wins either. If one of them wins over the other, then it is most likely superior in some concrete way, so the other one winning would have been getting something second rate. If Mir is completely eliminated in the next year, that's fine by me. If Wayland is, so be it. The quantity of Open Source market share a project receives is a result of many factors, but favoritism from me is not really one of them.
                Last edited by coder543; 07-09-2013, 03:40 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                  looking for an appropiated facepalm image, this is just so wrong and retarded the regular ones don't do the trick
                  I'm waiting on some argument with substance to be made... you're looking for a facepalm? hmm.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by coder543 View Post
                    ...unless you're claiming that more than 50% of Fedora users are actively using Wayland to help beta test it.
                    ubuntu 13.10 is running a fullscreen XMir app... that's hardly "beta testing Mir" except for screen management and basic stuff... which i'm pretty sure those features are already pretty functional and tested on Wayland by comparison.

                    Fedora will probably wait until Gnome & KDE support Wayland directly before shipping with it, since that's ultimately the goal of these X11 replacements.
                    Last edited by F i L; 07-09-2013, 03:40 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by F i L View Post
                      ubuntu 13.10 is running a fullscreen XMir app... that's hardly "beta testing Mir" except for screen management and basic stuff... which i'm pretty sure those features are already pretty functional and tested on Wayland by comparison.

                      Fedora will probably wait until Gnome & KDE support Wayland direction before shipping with it, since that's ultimately the goal of these X11 replacements.
                      Maybe I'm wrong on this, but XMir runs on top of Mir, so Mir is still being used, and on Ubuntu 13.10 you'll have the option of testing Unity8, which will be running purely on Mir... but the real beta test for this release is with Mir utilizing XMir. It's still a significant technical accomplishment, and more than just buffer swapping. I wouldn't be too quick to discount it. But, yes, Wayland is further along. It has been in development for many years... I would expect no less of it.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by coder543 View Post
                        Please, enlighten me as to my shortcomings. I don't believe I've made a single statement in this forum today that would indicate that I favor Mir or Wayland or Canonical or any particular group, and no one has actually proven any of my statements to be false. Maybe you should be the one downvoted?

                        I do not care whether Mir or Wayland end up winning. It seriously does not matter either.
                        1.) you understand how Mir/Wayland and Xmir/Xwayland works? how they process things internally in the GPU? how much stress is put into the API of the backend? you realize is a very very simple layer and the backend don't do nothing a simple SDL script + hacks won't achieve?
                        2.) you understand the guy that wrote XWayland and later ripped off as XMir stated is not good enough and need drm/kms side fixes, to be a real solution?
                        3.) you know Xmir and Xwayland are desgined for rootless apps? aka not running an XServer session in fullscreen
                        4.) don't you think wayland devs[Xorg/intel/amd/community/Vmware/kernel.org/redhat], that have many brilliant devs working for it would annouced XWayland if it was good enough?
                        5.) you realize wayland is finished except some corner cases that will be tackled in 1.2 release?
                        6.) explain to me why Redhat or anyone responsable will force you to test a layer that impact minimaly the features of wayland[or mir] that its own developer among many other brilliant ppl stated is not good enough yet?
                        7.) why you assume we wanna test XWayland?
                        8.) we are months away of fully native toolkits and DE for wayland upstream, meaning every distro out there will have it out-of-the-box just needeing a switch or option test to switch back and forth between wayland and X11
                        9.) you realize wayland is backed by the Xorg foundation and freedesktop.org and FSF? you know how much that weight? you seen its members?

                        my point is, if you don't have at least some of those answer how can you state what is good or bad? you tell your doctor what to do if you don't even know anatomy or medicine?

                        to put your post in an analogy "canonical is giving me a old VW beetle with a exterior made of paper that look like a ferrari so i can see it now, while wayland is an actual ferrari but i don't know to reach italy to see one, so it sucks"

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by coder543 View Post
                          Maybe I'm wrong on this, but XMir runs on top of Mir, so Mir is still being used
                          you are wrong on this.
                          , and on Ubuntu 13.10 you'll have the option of testing Unity8, which will be running purely on Mir...
                          and here again. unity on 13.10 is running on XMir, meaning it is running on the X emulation and not on mir. the first unity running on mir was announced for 14.04 but it depends how far they will be then.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                            And yet Wayland cannot display simple OpenGL apps, wheter running in XWayland or not. Mir can.
                            That's simply false; Wayland runs OpenGL apps just fine. As a demo, we even had Team Fortress 2 running natively under Wayland at one point.
                            Free Software Developer .:. Mesa and Xorg
                            Opinions expressed in these forum posts are my own.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                              ok lets get the hard to miss facts that if you actually read the code would OVBIOUS before answer your post

                              ...

                              if you need evidence find someone who can understand C and C++ and ask him to read both codebases

                              ok, now to your post

                              ...

                              3.) Wayland and everybody else[Mplayer/Gtk/Qt5/EFL/SDL/KDE/GNOME/e17/etc] except canonical wonderboys are focused full steam ahead in native ports instead of make PR with some technically useless demo or push alpha software to users
                              4.) Qt5, GTK , SDL, EFL apps already runs very good in wayland natively and Gnome/e17 should work natively in wayland this year tops and KDE prolly will in Q1 2014, like i said before wayland ppl don't make PR they port
                              ...
                              When you mention all those toolkits and their support for Wayland you should probably back those claims with this link.

                              Looking at that page doesn't seem to indicate that SDL has very good support in Wayland.
                              SDL

                              Benjamin Franzke is working on a port of SDL to Wayland, it's available in his sdl-wayland repo on freedesktop.org.
                              Last commit in this repository dates back to February 2012. Searching for more information about Wayland support in SDL doesn't bring better results.
                              SDL support is rough. Latest sdl with wayland support is soreau sdl. Before running any applications, please:
                              export SDL_VIDEODRIVER=wayland
                              Last commit in this repository was made 5 months ago and it's about X11 not Wayland.

                              You also won't find any trace of Wayland support in official SDL Mercurial repository. Look at the /src/video there is definitely X11 but no Wayland or Mir.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                                1.) you understand how Mir/Wayland and Xmir/Xwayland works? how they process things internally in the GPU? how much stress is put into the API of the backend? you realize is a very very simple layer and the backend don't do nothing a simple SDL script + hacks won't achieve?
                                2.) you understand the guy that wrote XWayland and later ripped off as XMir stated is not good enough and need drm/kms side fixes, to be a real solution?
                                3.) you know Xmir and Xwayland are desgined for rootless apps? aka not running an XServer session in fullscreen
                                4.) don't you think wayland devs[Xorg/intel/amd/community/Vmware/kernel.org/redhat], that have many brilliant devs working for it would annouced XWayland if it was good enough?
                                5.) you realize wayland is finished except some corner cases that will be tackled in 1.2 release?
                                6.) explain to me why Redhat or anyone responsable will force you to test a layer that impact minimaly the features of wayland[or mir] that its own developer among many other brilliant ppl stated is not good enough yet?
                                7.) why you assume we wanna test XWayland?
                                8.) we are months away of fully native toolkits and DE for wayland upstream, meaning every distro out there will have it out-of-the-box just needeing a switch or option test to switch back and forth between wayland and X11
                                9.) you realize wayland is backed by the Xorg foundation and freedesktop.org and FSF? you know how much that weight? you seen its members?

                                my point is, if you don't have at least some of those answer how can you state what is good or bad? you tell your doctor what to do if you don't even know anatomy or medicine?

                                to put your post in an analogy "canonical is giving me a old VW beetle with a exterior made of paper that look like a ferrari so i can see it now, while wayland is an actual ferrari but i don't know to reach italy to see one, so it sucks"

                                I'm aware of the technical aspects, believe it or not. But, I have neither a reason nor the time to prove it to you.

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