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Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win

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  • #16
    It seems that Canonical developers didnt show the phoronix benchmarks to Mark and he is having a placebo effect.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
      ok lets get the hard to miss facts that if you actually read the code would OVBIOUS before answer your post

      1.) Xmir don't test at all anything that a native mir apps will need, the only thing Xmir do is provide surfaces to push them back/forth to Xserver and very basic operations like input, scaling and location of surfaces. this wayland do since ages ago
      2.) Mir technically speaking is very far away of wayland capabilities[like color accurate render, frame sync, CSD, SSD, multiformat surface, multi-input, subsurfaces, software only allocations, agebuffer EXT, overlay, color type convertion, video surfaces,etc], so basically Mir is in the ages of wayland 0.20 or something around that age, i mean basically Xmir exploit all the working feature available in Mir today
      3.) Xmir is not working correctly in some desktops like KDE SC and i saw in a mailing list EFL is not a happy camper with Xmir either

      if you need evidence find someone who can understand C and C++ and ask him to read both codebases

      ok, now to your post

      1.) Xwayland is not even considered stable[canonical wonderboys don't care it seems], for wayland this is nothing beyond a fast hacky experiment to test if it was possible[very clearly stated, check mailing list] but again canonical ripped of what it could to show some PR, Proper Xwayland will come in xorg-server 1.15+ they need kernel side fixes to do it properly
      2.) Wayland stated again it should never be used until 1.0 was reached[again mailing list access is free you know]
      3.) Wayland and everybody else[Mplayer/Gtk/Qt5/EFL/SDL/KDE/GNOME/e17/etc] except canonical wonderboys are focused full steam ahead in native ports instead of make PR with some technically useless demo or push alpha software to users
      4.) Qt5, GTK , SDL, EFL apps already runs very good in wayland natively and Gnome/e17 should work natively in wayland this year tops and KDE prolly will in Q1 2014, like i said before wayland ppl don't make PR they port
      5.) Wayland support out-of-the-box will happen in Q1 2015 but will be available as a choice backend for anyone who wants testing it way before that, so they can iron out any issue before replace Xorg[unlike canonical this guys are proffesionals and won't push it to replace Xorg until it has enough testing], this was accorded between many parties and again mailinglist access is free
      6.) Wayland don't need PR or an specific distro, Wayland is the linux default choice backed by freedesktop.org and Xorg foundation that will use any GNU/Linux distro on earth[keeping Xorg as fallback] from now on except for canonical OS until they can't take the punishment anymore[keep ports of every major GUI software downstream for Mir compat]
      7.) at last if i want i can make KDE SC 4.11 on Xwayland in arch or gentoo but why use alpha software if i can wait some months to have full native DE to test it properly? and as a fact i will only needed it for GTK+-2.x applications if at all

      conclusion literate before post if you don't wanna be seen as a religious fanboy
      And yet Wayland cannot display simple OpenGL apps, wheter running in XWayland or not. Mir can.

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      • #18
        Canonical has a deadline so some will also want a race between it and Wayland. (like "how cool we are, we released before Wayland" and so on).

        Also do we have computers that can't handle a desktop? Display server performance is rather illusionary term - it either works, or not. You don't see a difference between 200 FPS or 150 FPS for some drawing operation etc. when in normal conditions max of 50 FPS is achieved as there is nothing else to draw and so on.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by riklaunim View Post
          Also do we have computers that can't handle a desktop? Display server performance is rather illusionary term - it either works, or not. You don't see a difference between 200 FPS or 150 FPS for some drawing operation etc. when in normal conditions max of 50 FPS is achieved as there is nothing else to draw and so on.
          Multitasking on larger screens is why people aim for higher frame rates in gfx cards.

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          • #20
            So Mr. Mark Shuttleworth your team forked wayland's code base and sync to it one a while in the future, then make some modification to suit your needs, and this is called "evolve faster than the competition"?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
              There is someone who still cares about Mark's opinions?
              That would be a real news.
              I believe his street cred went out the window with the reversal on Wayland and "creating" Mir atop of Wayland's multi-year efforts. They painted themselves in a corner, and Mir better be all that and a bag of chips when it's delivered, or it's highly unlikely anyone's going to take Canonical seriously for long.....

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              • #22
                Originally posted by rockmen1 View Post
                So Mr. Mark Shuttleworth your team forked wayland's code base and sync to it one a while in the future, then make some modification to suit your needs, and this is called "evolve faster than the competition"?
                Is there any proof they forked the code. They said they investigated Wayland and found it wanting, so they designed their own display server to suit the moving into mobile device market and traditional desktops.

                The thing that has haunted Linux for its existence has been graphic speeds and sound. Mir and PulseAudio have now come to the rescue.

                Pulse audio need more graphical means to manipulate record and play channels and their mixing, and Mir needs to be taken up by proprietary hardware makers and the future is Linux's.

                Other qualities will be true colour mapping, real time sound capturing, real time interaction streaming, etc.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
                  And yet Wayland cannot display simple OpenGL apps, wheter running in XWayland or not. Mir can.
                  What the hell are you talking about? Have a look at this video:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FjuPn7MXMs

                  It shows a toy-3D-wayland-compositor. It dates back to September 2012 -- nearly half a year before Mir was even announced.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Mark Shuttleworth
                    Building a graphics stack is not a decision made lightly – it’s not an afternoon’s hacking. The decision was taken based on a careful consideration of technical factors.
                    Correct me if i'm wrong, but last I remember hearing Canonical spent very little time addressing the technical concerns they had of Wayland, and even less time actually discussing their concerns with the Wayland developers in an attempt to find universal solutions with the rest of the linux-desktop dev community. Mark's words here feel exactly like his post-mir blog entries... BS claims for the sake of marketing. What's sad is how effective it seems to be... I honestly wounder if bringing "Mir" to 13.10 isn't just a PR move. "Look, we made a Mir-based OS in under a year! Where's your god now, Wayland fans?".


                    PS. I would have posted this on the actual blog, but my last two posts there (non-offensive critisizms of Mir) where deleted and I was banned from posting on that blog entry.. I have a feeling it wasn't the automated-spam-filter that deleted them, but regardless, I'm not posting somewhere that has such rigid guidelines about leaving feedback. I purposely didn't even curse, so I'm not sure what the spam filter would have even thought was bad..
                    Last edited by F i L; 07-09-2013, 01:27 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by enfocomp View Post
                      Mir is currently in Ubuntu 13.10, working in action. You can download the daily build and use it NOW.
                      Mir isn't working on 13.10 no matter how much you want to belive this lie. There is NOTHING working native on Mir right now. The whole thing renders to an X Server.

                      At least KDE 4.11 Beta has a real EGL backend in KWin and doesn't use XWayland to display the entire desktop like Ubuntu does now. Something that XWayland and therefore XMir never was designed for. It's designed for legacy app support. No wonder it is slow as crap and buggy. See here: https://plus.google.com/108668411027...ts/PYkb33sL5Lj Yeah let's just say that extra mouse cursor is a feature and not a bug! Weston with legacy support through XWayland is very much usable for desktop task. In contrast to Mir it actually has usable native applications like Gtk apps (through the Wayland backend in GTK) and even some games like Doom 3 which was ported to use SDL with wayland support.

                      Look at the facts and don't swollow every bullshit propaganda that comes from Canonical. Tell me about all the toolkits that support Mir at the moment... Ooops there aren't any except their own QtUbuntu toolkit which is only used for their phone and tablet stuff.
                      Last edited by blackout23; 07-09-2013, 01:31 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                        The thing that has haunted Linux for its existence has been graphic speeds and sound. Mir and PulseAudio have now come to the rescue.
                        I do not think that Lennart Poettering would terribly appreciate being considerd as hopping through a magical field hand in hand with Mark Shuttleworth. Especally since to him the future is most definitely systemd, pulseaudio, and wayland.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by F i L View Post
                          PS. I would have posted this on the actual blog, but my last two posts there (non-offensive critisizms of Mir) where deleted and I was banned from posting on that blog entry.
                          Mir is a confidence trick, of course he will not tolerate anything that pops the bubble.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
                            Mir isn't working on 13.10 no matter how much you want to belive this lie. There is NOTHING working native on Mir right now. The whole thing renders to an X Server ... Weston with legacy support through XWayland is very much usable for desktop task. In contrast to Mir it actually has usable native applications like Gtk apps (through the Wayland backend in GTK) and even some games like Doom 3 which was ported to use SDL with wayland support.
                            So basically this is equivalent to putting a Wine layer on top of a game release and calling it a native Linux port. Only this time it is a display server...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                              So basically this is equivalent to putting a Wine layer on top of a game release and calling it a native Linux port. Only this time it is a display server...
                              Mhh you're right! That's basically what it is.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by coder543 View Post
                                The wayland guys don't have the power to do anything. No other distro cares enough about Wayland to beta test it for them, so of course it hasn't been pushed out. Canonical on the other hand, has a time frame they must meet, and they care deeply about Mir, so they're going to do whatever it takes. They think it will be past the beta stage by the time Ubuntu 13.10 is released, but they still need to have it tested in real world conditions before the LTS in the spring.

                                I appreciate what the wayland community is doing, but don't give them credit for making a decision they never had the power (and by extension, the temptation) to make.
                                That's funny:

                                http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/p...ackageID=11213

                                Wayland has been in Fedora since 2010-11-15 . People are running GTK+ apps natively in Wayland on Fedora:

                                http://worldofgnome.org/easily-try-g...-in-fedora-19/

                                The GNOME Wiki even has the instructions:

                                https://wiki.gnome.org/Wayland/GTK+

                                I do find it amazing how willing people are to say things that are so utterly and completely wrong that they could check for themselves with Google and thirty seconds.

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