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Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win

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  • Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win

    Phoronix: Mark Shuttleworth Declares Mir A Performance Win

    Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth has been running the Mir Display Server for the past two weeks. After doing so, he's very happy with the Mir experience in Ubuntu 13.10 at this stage in its development and already feels that it's smoother than with X. He's blogged about his experience of running Mir on Ubuntu Linux...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTQwNjM

  • #2
    Subjective feelings of performance are more complex than any mere benchmarks can show. I remember playing with Wayland on Rebecca Black Linux when that was first released. Everything about it subjectively felt way better than X.org, but I doubt hard numbers would've backed me up on it back then. They might these days, but this was when RBL was first released.

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    • #3
      I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now about future predictions, Mir is still in early development. Considering that it was only unveiled a few months ago, and we already have a working desktop, it's doing very well IMO.

      I wouldn't exactly call the performance of Mir a "win" at this point, more like a "decent start". I don't see myself using Mir/Wayland until there is no performance loss compared to X, or at the very least proprietary drivers are supported.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by MS
        We take a lot of flack for every decision we make in Ubuntu, because so many people are affected.
        But I remind the team – failure to act when action is needed is as much a failure as taking the wrong kind of action might be.
        We have a responsibility to our users to explore difficult territory.
        Many difficult choices in the past are the bedrock of our usefulness to a very wide audience today.

        Building a graphics stack is not a decision made lightly – it’s not an afternoon’s hacking.
        The decision was taken based on a careful consideration of technical factors.
        We need a graphics stack that works reliably across a very wide range of hardware, that performs predictably,
        that provides a consistent quality of user experience on many different desktop environments.
        Still, I fail to see why it has to be Mir then...
        Last edited by entropy; 07-09-2013, 11:00 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by enfocomp View Post
          I'm going to keep my mouth shut for now about future predictions, Mir is still in early development. Considering that it was only unveiled a few months ago, and we already have a working desktop, it's doing very well IMO.

          I wouldn't exactly call the performance of Mir a "win" at this point, more like a "decent start". I don't see myself using Mir/Wayland until there is no performance loss compared to X, or at the very least proprietary drivers are supported.
          Wow you are easy to impress. It just takes a fork of XWayland to run a fullscreen X Server on Mir and people think Mir is actually going somewhere. Quite nice that the Wayland guys did all the hard work years ago making changes to mesa etc. to make something like this possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...wMi-eY#t=6189s But hey let's ignore that. Canonical forked something behind closed doors and made it public a few month ago and are now showing hacky desktops that basically run a rootless X Server. W00t GO MIR!
          Last edited by blackout23; 07-09-2013, 11:08 AM.

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          • #6
            There is someone who still cares about Mark's opinions?
            That would be a real news.

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            • #7
              please someone push the super key on a i945 system
              enjoy
              is it even possible to test mir right now? as the mir server runs xorg server 1.13 and the saucy repo without xmir runs 1.14 resulting in me having issues upgrading

              BUT
              the jumpy Lenovo touchpad issue has comepletely gone for good (what a relief!)

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              • #8
                It's interesting to see that the wayland guys have been very careful about doing things properly and not pushing beta software out to users, as has happened in some transitions on the linux stack before (like pulseaudio), but then canonical shows up and does the good old "here goes something" bit.

                Honestly I'm torn. I use Ubuntu, and plan on continuing doing so, but I think Mir is just the result of canonical devs just giving into NIH, while Wayland seems to be the path forward. But then, hurd was proper and linux was something. Who knows what will happen.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by [Knuckles] View Post
                  It's interesting to see that the wayland guys have been very careful about doing things properly and not pushing beta software out to users, as has happened in some transitions on the linux stack before.
                  The wayland guys don't have the power to do anything. No other distro cares enough about Wayland to beta test it for them, so of course it hasn't been pushed out. Canonical on the other hand, has a time frame they must meet, and they care deeply about Mir, so they're going to do whatever it takes. They think it will be past the beta stage by the time Ubuntu 13.10 is released, but they still need to have it tested in real world conditions before the LTS in the spring.

                  I appreciate what the wayland community is doing, but don't give them credit for making a decision they never had the power (and by extension, the temptation) to make.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
                    Wow you are easy to impress. It just takes a fork of XWayland to run a fullscreen X Server on Mir and people think Mir is actually going somewhere. Quite nice that the Wayland guys did all the hard work years ago making changes to mesa etc. to make something like this possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...wMi-eY#t=6189s But hey let's ignore that. Canonical forked something behind closed doors and made it public a few month ago and are now showing hacky desktops that basically run a rootless X Server. W00t GO MIR!
                    Mir is currently in Ubuntu 13.10, working in action. You can download the daily build and use it NOW. Where is Wayland? I hear talk for years but nothing in action. Rebecca Black Linux....lol?

                    I know Wayland started everything & Mir forked it, kinda a dick thing to do, but welcome to open source! People fork things and make them better and/or the way they want. Isn't this a fundamental part of open source?? When did Linux turn communist and you can only use what you're told to?

                    Not saying Mir is better at this point, but it's closer to an actual working desktop, it's a fact regardless if you like or dislike Canonical.

                    I'm not a Wayland or Mir fanboy, just going to use whatever works the best. I have no stake in whoever wins the great display server war of 2013. It would be nice to see Wayland used instead of Mir, but seriously, are politics more important than performance? It's just too early to tell at this point what will be the outcome! Let them develop and use whatever works best?

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                    • #11
                      Its FLOSS.

                      Fork is our sun. Deal with it.

                      (Fork as any code sharing that is done according to license)

                      And working together on something better is our air. Deal with it.



                      (First relate to notion that Mir copying code from Wayland is wrong... Second relate to idea that Mir reusing Mesa work could be wrong... Hilarious.)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by enfocomp View Post
                        Mir is currently in Ubuntu 13.10, working in action. You can download the daily build and use it NOW. Where is Wayland? I hear talk for years but nothing in action.
                        Maybe you're not looking hard enough?
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_uRUIctGd0
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V8i8zZPzbU

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                        • #13
                          It's a great opportunity for the Wayland developers to create their own distribution of Linux and go head to head with Canonical. A means to show what they've got, balls or talk.

                          I'll be staying with Kubuntu and maybe move to Ubuntu with KDE installed using XMir if the Kubuntu people are so ignorant.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by [Knuckles] View Post
                            It's interesting to see that the wayland guys have been very careful about doing things properly and not pushing beta software out to users, as has happened in some transitions on the linux stack before (like pulseaudio), but then canonical shows up and does the good old "here goes something" bit.

                            Honestly I'm torn. I use Ubuntu, and plan on continuing doing so, but I think Mir is just the result of canonical devs just giving into NIH, while Wayland seems to be the path forward. But then, hurd was proper and linux was something. Who knows what will happen.
                            If you want to stay in the ubuntu ecosystem, wayland will be availabe to install when it is ready for consumption(hits debain testing). So you don't have to make a hard decision, install both when wayland become available and see which one you like, all staying on the Ubuntu ecosystem.

                            Its exciting to see how things will turn out. I like your Hurd v Linux anology. Hopefully though, both will survive, instead of the one being successful and the other nonexistent, like your example.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by coder543 View Post
                              The wayland guys don't have the power to do anything. No other distro cares enough about Wayland to beta test it for them, so of course it hasn't been pushed out. Canonical on the other hand, has a time frame they must meet, and they care deeply about Mir, so they're going to do whatever it takes. They think it will be past the beta stage by the time Ubuntu 13.10 is released, but they still need to have it tested in real world conditions before the LTS in the spring.

                              I appreciate what the wayland community is doing, but don't give them credit for making a decision they never had the power (and by extension, the temptation) to make.
                              ok lets get the hard to miss facts that if you actually read the code would OVBIOUS before answer your post

                              1.) Xmir don't test at all anything that a native mir apps will need, the only thing Xmir do is provide surfaces to push them back/forth to Xserver and very basic operations like input, scaling and location of surfaces. this wayland do since ages ago
                              2.) Mir technically speaking is very far away of wayland capabilities[like color accurate render, frame sync, CSD, SSD, multiformat surface, multi-input, subsurfaces, software only allocations, agebuffer EXT, overlay, color type convertion, video surfaces,etc], so basically Mir is in the ages of wayland 0.20 or something around that age, i mean basically Xmir exploit all the working feature available in Mir today
                              3.) Xmir is not working correctly in some desktops like KDE SC and i saw in a mailing list EFL is not a happy camper with Xmir either

                              if you need evidence find someone who can understand C and C++ and ask him to read both codebases

                              ok, now to your post

                              1.) Xwayland is not even considered stable[canonical wonderboys don't care it seems], for wayland this is nothing beyond a fast hacky experiment to test if it was possible[very clearly stated, check mailing list] but again canonical ripped of what it could to show some PR, Proper Xwayland will come in xorg-server 1.15+ they need kernel side fixes to do it properly
                              2.) Wayland stated again it should never be used until 1.0 was reached[again mailing list access is free you know]
                              3.) Wayland and everybody else[Mplayer/Gtk/Qt5/EFL/SDL/KDE/GNOME/e17/etc] except canonical wonderboys are focused full steam ahead in native ports instead of make PR with some technically useless demo or push alpha software to users
                              4.) Qt5, GTK , SDL, EFL apps already runs very good in wayland natively and Gnome/e17 should work natively in wayland this year tops and KDE prolly will in Q1 2014, like i said before wayland ppl don't make PR they port
                              5.) Wayland support out-of-the-box will happen in Q1 2015 but will be available as a choice backend for anyone who wants testing it way before that, so they can iron out any issue before replace Xorg[unlike canonical this guys are proffesionals and won't push it to replace Xorg until it has enough testing], this was accorded between many parties and again mailinglist access is free
                              6.) Wayland don't need PR or an specific distro, Wayland is the linux default choice backed by freedesktop.org and Xorg foundation that will use any GNU/Linux distro on earth[keeping Xorg as fallback] from now on except for canonical OS until they can't take the punishment anymore[keep ports of every major GUI software downstream for Mir compat]
                              7.) at last if i want i can make KDE SC 4.11 on Xwayland in arch or gentoo but why use alpha software if i can wait some months to have full native DE to test it properly? and as a fact i will only needed it for GTK+-2.x applications if at all

                              conclusion literate before post if you don't wanna be seen as a religious fanboy

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