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XWayland 2D Performance Appears Better Than XMir

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  • Originally posted by DDF420 View Post
    A new unity comes out with every ubuntu release 11.10 unity 4 12.04 unity 5 12.10 unity 6 13.04 unity 7 so on. what is not clear to me is what the 11.04 first unity version number was. 3 ? or were versions 123 introduced between 11.04 and 11.10 ?
    Hmm, that still doesn't make that much sense given that there won't be Unity 8 on 13.10 or even 14.04.

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    • Originally posted by spacetoilet View Post
      One of the Ubuntu Developers said on his blog Mir's API will keep changing, (can't remember what one -_-) you know the Ubuntu Way, Wayland on the other hand is if it's not Broken dont fix it
      Yes, I quoted that and pasted a link a few posts ago, but then there's a newer statement on the mailing list that says the opposite (and I already gave my opinion about that overly common change of mind of Canonical and their devs in the Mir subjects).

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      • Originally posted by TheOne View Post
        What I mean with more advanced is that well, XWayland segfaulted to the guy doing some of the tests where XMir ran fine like 3D as someone else mentioned. So there is a big chance that canonical developers improved XWayland while doing the refactory to xMir. There is also the fact that those test the guy did where running Wayland over Weston and just applications using XWayland instead of using XWayland to run an entire DE so that would actually run faster than what canonical guys are offering with XMir and a full Desktop Environment for backward compatibility issues of DE still running on X.

        There could also be a slight chance that running Wayland Weston and XWayland with 3D applications isn't mature yet and the same could apply to Mir. Anyways this tests aren't the same to not say fair. We need a pure XWayland vs XMir test, both running an entire Desktop environment.
        Xwayland does ran 3d good enough but until xorg 1.13[current ubuntu version] with some downstream patches, beyond this point in time XWayland was delayed due to some performance hits and weird roundtrips[like input delay] and through in the land NO-FIX until some changes that i think keith is working on for DRI3 that will solve the base issue[and some patches waiting in Xorg mailinglist that are being refactored cuz are too hacky].

        remember that unlike canonical that need to rush to probe Mir won't be just another candidate for ubuntu project graveyard they don't mind to push horrible hacky code so they can PR "OMG mirz workz", the FLOSS team like to do thing properly and won't release anything until all major structural bugs have an right structural solution[in this case DRI3 and Xorg 1.15(temptingly)].

        so yes Xwayland was a nice experiment to prove that is possible to provide X compatibility and test the weaknesses of the current stack in such scenario but was never considered for real use until the base issues are tackled, Xmir share the same issues but canonical [as history proves] don't have much issue in putting crappy patches in releases and wait until wayland developers upstream the proper solutions[they won't code them nor they have the people to do it].

        as an interesting fact Microsoft and Apple have contributed more code to linux than Canonical

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        • Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
          I do believe they'll freeze the API by the time they release their first version with a native desktop. Otherwise, no developer would be able to target them, and I think they should want that to happen.
          Not quite. There are two APIs in question - the client one, and the server one. The client one is already supposed to be stable, and that's the one that's needed for writing applications - the one Qt and Gtk and other toolkits need to support. As you say, this API *must* be stable, in order for the platform to be useful for applications.

          The server API is the one that's relevant for porting desktops - for writing the Mir equivalent of a compositor. That's the bit the KWin team care about, and it's also the bit where we've received mixed messages about whether it will ever be stable. If Canonical only care about Unity, there's no need for it ever to be declared stable, but for other desktops to run on Mir, that's a requirement.

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          • Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
            as an interesting fact Microsoft and Apple have contributed more code to linux than Canonical
            How does that even come into a discussion about the technical merits of XWayland and XMir?
            Or are you one of these guys who likes strawman arguments?

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            • Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
              Not quite. There are two APIs in question - the client one, and the server one. The client one is already supposed to be stable, and that's the one that's needed for writing applications - the one Qt and Gtk and other toolkits need to support. As you say, this API *must* be stable, in order for the platform to be useful for applications.

              The server API is the one that's relevant for porting desktops - for writing the Mir equivalent of a compositor. That's the bit the KWin team care about, and it's also the bit where we've received mixed messages about whether it will ever be stable. If Canonical only care about Unity, there's no need for it ever to be declared stable, but for other desktops to run on Mir, that's a requirement.
              Thanks for the clarification. I was aware that the compositor and the clients on Wayland used different APIs, but thought that in X and Mir it was the same for both.

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              • Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                Hmm, that still doesn't make that much sense given that there won't be Unity 8 on 13.10 or even 14.04.
                Actually, whilst unity 8 (unity next) will not be the default for 13.10, folk will have the option to install/test it on 13.10, when supposedly ready a month or so after 13.10 is released. From my understanding, the plan is to have a fully working mir/unity 8 by 14.04,thus all the complaints about such big changes arriving on an LTS. Since the unity changes for 8 would be rather big i presume that's why the version numbers are likely to go out of sync.

                As many of you are probably aware, we are working on the Mir display server that is designed to provide a fast, efficient, and extensible display server across phone, tablet, desktop, and TV. Our ultimate goal is a fully converged Unity 8 running on top of Mir ready for the next LTS timeframe, and in 13.10 we plan on making our first step in that direction.

                For 13.10 we plan on delivering Mir by default in Ubuntu Desktop with XMir (an implementation of X running on Mir) and our current Unity 7 codebase (the same Unity codebase that is currently in the Saucy development release).

                This will be enabled for graphics hardware with Open Source drivers supported by Mir (primarily intel, nouveau and radeon). For binary graphics drivers (e.g. many NVidia and ATI cards) that don’t support Mir yet, we will fallback to the normal X server that we usually ship. This will mean that all users are well served in Ubuntu 13.10 and everyone will get the standard Unity 7 experience with feature parity with X (e.g. multi-monitor support). This fallback will be removed for Ubuntu 14.04. We are working with GPU vendors and partners to provide the required driver support and are confident to have this in place for 14.04.
                http://fridge.ubuntu.com/2013/06/27/mir-plans-in-13-10/
                Last edited by DDF420; 07-03-2013, 12:11 AM.

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                • Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                  How does that even come into a discussion about the technical merits of XWayland and XMir?
                  Or are you one of these guys who likes strawman arguments?
                  well is a solid fact you can check yourself any day not an argument and is related to the fact XMir will try to keep it togheter until unity8 using every hack patch in wayland mailinglist[rejected for quality] until wayland devs upstream the proper solution [DRI3/Mesa10/xorg1.15+] since nothing in their repo or the related projects repo have been upload to help this process from canonical team.[as always leeching like bosses giving nothing back]

                  in resume, XMir will reach maturity once wayland/xorg/mesa devs fix the base problemprobably near the release of ubuntu 14.04[canonical wonderboys crossing finger keith making it in time so they can show how tech avanced is mir running rootless OMG]

                  just for the lulz i would love keith upstream DRI3 and xorg patches in an incompatible licence with Mir just to see how canonical wonderboys make things work out[i bet they relicense the entire mir code]

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                  • Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                    just for the lulz i would love keith upstream DRI3 and xorg patches in an incompatible licence with Mir just to see how canonical wonderboys make things work out[i bet they relicense the entire mir code]
                    Relicense? No, either stay with DRI2 or write something "better" (MirDRI)! Better write cause, well, it's Canonical. :P

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