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In-Fighting Continues Over Mir On Non-Unity Ubuntu

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  • #31
    Originally posted by movieman View Post
    Is anyone still using Ubuntu? I thought we'd all moved to Mint.
    This is just an old rumor.
    Most of the people still use Ubuntu.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
      or you could try openSUSE, you know you don't have to stick to debian based

      here's your drivers, and you can get your multimedia set up there as well very easily.
      http://www.opensuse-guide.org/3d.php
      That looks really nice...very nice actually. Thank you. @liam I'm not *really* considering Windows, I was just a little upset and commented before doing any research beyond Debian. I do have a few more questions if you don't mind. I have some Games I bought in Deb format, is their any chance of getting those installed in OpenSUSE? Also, does Steam work? and what is the Stability like in OpenSUSE?.

      Comment


      • #33
        Think of Mint as an "external" Ubuntu flavor, so we ARE using Ubuntu

        Originally posted by movieman View Post
        Is anyone still using Ubuntu? I thought we'd all moved to Mint.
        To at least the same extent as anyone using Ubuntu Server, as Mint is based on Ubuntu. Go to the Mint package site, and look at how few packages have to be added to or replaced from Ubuntu using Mint's own repos, the rest are either Ubuntu packages from Ubuntu repos, or those Debian packages in the same repos that Ubuntu does not change either. These are the packages that don't contain the string "ubuntu" in the package version number and come from Ubuntu repos.

        I use packages from Mint (development version, when available) myself to run current versions of Cinnamon and Nemo. Went right into Ubuntu with no trouble. My main OS is a blend of UbuntuStudio, themes from circa 2008 Ubuntustudio ported myself to GTK3, and Mint. Think of Mint as an "external" flavor of Ubuntu, one that also maintains a version that is based on Debian in case anything truly awful happens upstream.

        In the end, all of these are based on Debian, no matter how far they have diverged.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by dh04000 View Post
          Mir dev's "We would like to port kde to Mir ourselves, but we just need some pointers"

          Kde dev "Go fuck yourselves"

          Zealots "See, Ubuntu doesn't try to work with upstream"

          Everyone else "The hell?"
          You've completely twisted this. Lets look at a telling quote from this mailing lists post:

          Originally posted by Jono Bacon (Ubuntu)
          Originally posted by Scott Kitterman (Kubuntu)
          The issue isn't that Canonical engineers aren't willing to work with other people on integrating Mir, it's that because Mir is Ubuntu unique, has no stable API/ABI, conflicts with other riorities, etc., integrating Mir is simply not an interesting prospect for upstreams.
          Mir is only going to be unique if upstreams and flavors refuse to consider it as an option.
          This illustrates the heart of the "problem". Canonical secretly started developing Mir over a year ago with apparently a naive believe that, once released, KDE/Gnome/Xorg would we willing (or perhaps eager) to support it even though it's an inferior, distro/DE-specific unstable API/ABI compared to Wayland which those organizations had already started investing in. At one point in the mailing list, a Ubuntu employee states that he feel's there's been valid reason for Mir... even if that where the case (which, to the best of my understanding, it isn't), had Canonical actually cared about it's *buntu spins, those reasons should have been discussed over a year ago with the KDE/Gnome/Xorg devs in the interest of supporting their spins.

          It's completely obvious Canonical either a) didn't think far enough ahead, and is unwilling to change now, or b) simply doesn't care, but is pretending to now. THAT is the reason people claim Canonical isn't trying to work with upstream... because they aren't really. Which is made even more apparent by their request of Scott early on the discussion to have him do the work of supporting Mir in KWin (which he declined). Even "just needing pointers" takes time an effort from the KWin devs.. and can you really blame them for not caring enough give it? I can't.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by bkor View Post
            Hotly discussed? The only emails from GNOME were by me and there was nothing emotional about it. Crappy reporting!
            Welcome to Phoronix? :-P

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Mike Frett View Post
              That looks really nice...very nice actually. Thank you. @liam I'm not *really* considering Windows, I was just a little upset and commented before doing any research beyond Debian. I do have a few more questions if you don't mind. I have some Games I bought in Deb format, is their any chance of getting those installed in OpenSUSE? Also, does Steam work? and what is the Stability like in OpenSUSE?.
              Opensuse 12.3 here.

              Steam is working fine ( one click install ) Serious sam 3, half life half life 2, teamfortress 1and 2
              http://software.opensuse.org/package/steam

              I have no idea about games in deb format. it should not be a problem, but I have 0% experience with that.

              Just extracting the deb is how steam first came to suse....

              And about that deal with ms, ms was forced to sell linux ( suse) . most people seem to overlook this detail.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mike Frett View Post
                That looks really nice...very nice actually. Thank you. @liam I'm not *really* considering Windows, I was just a little upset and commented before doing any research beyond Debian. I do have a few more questions if you don't mind. I have some Games I bought in Deb format, is their any chance of getting those installed in OpenSUSE? Also, does Steam work? and what is the Stability like in OpenSUSE?.
                Steam is in the repos, and the stability so far for me has been great.

                as far as the games go if it's all statically linked it shouldn't be a problem, but if it's dynamically linked there might be issues. You can either extract the .debs directly or you can use alien to translate them into .rpms

                edit: just as a suggestion, if possible in the future you should probably rebuy the games in either steam or desura that way the games and associated libraries are maintained separately from the distribution. Not saying you have to but that it'd probably be a good idea for the long term given you intend on using steam anyway.
                Last edited by Luke_Wolf; 06-18-2013, 05:15 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Rich Oliver View Post
                  I switched from Kubuntu to Opensuse Kde. I was resistant to Opensuse because of their deal with Microsoft but generally they seem to be a distro that seeks to empower users and support the wider community.
                  openSUSE never ever had a deal with Microsoft.

                  Originally posted by Rich Oliver View Post
                  To my mind Canonical can not be trusted as the newbies distro or the default distro.
                  Cloverleaf Linux http://cloverleaf-linux.org/ is a project by the Fuduntu creators to make openSUSE easier for newbies. Cloverleaf is being developed within the openSUSE community and uses its build.opensuse.org infrastructure directly. It's not a fork of openSUSE (unlike Fuduntu which was a fork or Fedora).

                  Korora https://kororaproject.org/ is a similar project for Fedora.

                  Originally posted by Luke View Post
                  If this is the ONLY problem, you could ctrl=alt-F2 (-F6) to a console, kill lightdm, and start up a different display manager. What would screw this up would be if it became impossible to switch display servers because of either an inability to start one post-boot (a KMS issue perhaps) or because killing the "sytem compositor" knocked out your TTY's and no replacement for them was started.
                  As I also wrote: No QA for Wayland under Ubuntu. Wayland will just be one of many packages simply imported from Debian.
                  The comments in the thread are clear: As it stands now, the others are not able to maintain Wayland in Ubuntu and provide QA for it.

                  Originally posted by sacridex View Post
                  This is just an old rumor.
                  Most of the people still use Ubuntu.
                  Most people using Ubuntu is an old rumor. If Ubuntu had more users than RHEL, Canonical would make more money than Red Hat.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by F i L View Post
                    This illustrates the heart of the "problem". Canonical secretly started developing Mir over a year ago with apparently a naive believe that, once released, KDE/Gnome/Xorg would we willing (or perhaps eager) to support it even though it's an inferior, distro/DE-specific unstable API/ABI compared to Wayland which those organizations had already started investing in. At one point in the mailing list, a Ubuntu employee states that he feel's there's been valid reason for Mir... even if that where the case (which, to the best of my understanding, it isn't), had Canonical actually cared about it's *buntu spins, those reasons should have been discussed over a year ago with the KDE/Gnome/Xorg devs in the interest of supporting their spins.

                    It's completely obvious Canonical either a) didn't think far enough ahead, and is unwilling to change now, or b) simply doesn't care, but is pretending to now. THAT is the reason people claim Canonical isn't trying to work with upstream... because they aren't really. Which is made even more apparent by their request of Scott early on the discussion to have him do the work of supporting Mir in KWin (which he declined). Even "just needing pointers" takes time an effort from the KWin devs.. and can you really blame them for not caring enough give it? I can't.
                    That's my take, too. I've read through that mailing list thread, and there's little or no effort by any of the Canonical folks to address *why* the rest of the community is unhappy with them. There's a lot of talk about how they're happy to talk to upstream, but they clearly expect upstream to initiate it, to approach them to find out how to support Mir. And they're failing to acknowledge the fact that upstream doesn't *care* about supporting Mir, that the rest of the community had already chosen Wayland and has no interest in putting extra effort into supporting Canonical's unwanted baby...

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Thanks

                      Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                      Steam is in the repos, and the stability so far for me has been great.

                      as far as the games go if it's all statically linked it shouldn't be a problem, but if it's dynamically linked there might be issues. You can either extract the .debs directly or you can use alien to translate them into .rpms

                      edit: just as a suggestion, if possible in the future you should probably re-buy the games in either steam or desura that way the games and associated libraries are maintained separately from the distribution. Not saying you have to but that it'd probably be a good idea for the long term given you intend on using steam anyway.
                      In light of the current situation, I will definitely not be buying anything else from the Software Center and thankfully only bought two or three things. RC Mini Racers and Torchlight, steam and desura offers none of those sadly. I was just looking at OpenSUSE Xfce version (I like Xfce) there doesn't seem to be a 1 click install for the Multimedia Codecs, only for Gnome and KDE. From my reading, it looks as if OpenSUSE wanted to bring in something like Ubuntu's Software Center where Games etc could be sold, that would be cool I think.

                      Also I'm not really a Newbie, I've been using Linux (not full time like now) since I bought Redhat 5.2 Deluxe back around '99. Believe it or not I installed it without problems, even got my old Win-modem working by editing files. I even built a Kernel lol Not to bad for someone who knew nothing about it. I even played around with Caldera Linux 2.2, remember them?. I still have the Retail boxes, and yes they still have that 'new' smell. =p

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                      • #41
                        I so stopped giving a shit.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by scionicspectre View Post
                          I don't have a problem with Mir being used for Ubuntu, as Unity is already an Ubuntu-specific interface that's extremely difficult to get working on other distros. But it's just silly to expect other people to support Mir so far ahead, without the technical means or the social imperative to do so.
                          Yea... When even the name "Ubuntu Desktop" is hardcoded into Unity's source code, you know that it's not portable in the slightest...

                          Originally posted by blackout23 View Post
                          So how does the Windows support look like? There are progams like Okular for Windows, which probably isn't that dramatic considering that Qt is a multiplatform framework. If you could enlighten me on how to run the complete KDE Plasma Workspace with KWin on Windows 7 I will forever praise you as the King of the Internet.
                          Not KWin, but you can run Plasma just fine: http://www.linuxhaxor.net/kde-on-win...-its-own-turf/

                          Originally posted by Rich Oliver View Post
                          I switched from Kubuntu to Opensuse Kde. I was resistant to Opensuse because of their deal with Microsoft but generally they seem to be a distro that seeks to empower users and support the wider community. Debian does not use SystemD. It seems to me that convergence on Wayland and SystemD is the way forward.
                          openSUSE never had any deals with Microsoft. Novell did, and Novell developed SUSE, not openSUSE. The whole point of openSUSE is that it's completely community-driven.

                          Also, man, you really should pay attention to capitalisation It's not Opensuse, not OpenSuse, not OpenSuSE, it's openSUSE. It's also not SystemD, not systemD, not SyStEmD, it's systemd.

                          Originally posted by Mike Frett View Post
                          That looks really nice...very nice actually. Thank you. @liam I'm not *really* considering Windows, I was just a little upset and commented before doing any research beyond Debian. I do have a few more questions if you don't mind. I have some Games I bought in Deb format, is their any chance of getting those installed in OpenSUSE? Also, does Steam work? and what is the Stability like in OpenSUSE?.
                          Most of that was already answered, but to expand a bit on your stability question, it's somewhere in the middle. They're not conservative like Debian and not bleeding-edge like Fedora. They try to have the default software be as issue-free as possible while making sure it's not very outdated (so, for instance, 12.3 doesn't yet have LibreOffice 4; you can still install it from custom repositories, though). Overall they're more to the "unstable" end of the spectrum as opposed to the "conservative" one, but overall it's very near the middle.

                          You can also check out Mageia. They are also somewhere in the middle, but more to the conservative end of the spectrum. They also have things like Steam and very easy to install drivers (it's overall geared towards ease of use).

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mike Frett View Post
                            In light of the current situation, I will definitely not be buying anything else from the Software Center and thankfully only bought two or three things. RC Mini Racers and Torchlight, steam and desura offers none of those sadly. I was just looking at OpenSUSE Xfce version (I like Xfce) there doesn't seem to be a 1 click install for the Multimedia Codecs, only for Gnome and KDE. From my reading, it looks as if OpenSUSE wanted to bring in something like Ubuntu's Software Center where Games etc could be sold, that would be cool I think.
                            Codecs are codecs, they aren't DE-specific. XFCE uses GTK, so the "GNOME" codecs should work just fine. It just might install a bit too many unnecessary dependencies.

                            And yes, there are plans to have an "app store". Personally I really don't care about it, YaST package management is already top notch.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
                              Codecs are codecs, they aren't DE-specific. XFCE uses GTK, so the "GNOME" codecs should work just fine. It just might install a bit too many unnecessary dependencies.

                              And yes, there are plans to have an "app store". Personally I really don't care about it, YaST package management is already top notch.
                              Codes are something for gstreamer. It can be used by KDE, GNOME, others. That does not rely on GTK+ or Qt (might rely on glib).

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by bkor View Post
                                Codes are something for gstreamer. It can be used by KDE, GNOME, others. That does not rely on GTK+ or Qt (might rely on glib).
                                Yes, that's exactly my point. Although IIRC the 1-Click Install also pulls in media players, and those do depend on GTK or Qt.

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