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Mir Still Causing Concerns By Ubuntu Derivatives

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  • #81
    Wayland does require one more Wayland-specific extension, though (albeit it could probably be implemented in software if it comes to that).

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    • #82
      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
      Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland
      "Whenever" means "once", and this one time was in November 2010, two and a half year ago...
      And NVidia did not confirm that statement.

      As of now, NVidia is probably developing an EGL driver because it's the future anyway, and NVidia is probably ensuring all three Mir, Wayland and SurfaceFlinger compatibility on it because atop an EGL driver all three are super easy.
      Probably.
      Officially, NVidia is doing/promising nothing (outside supporting X).

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      • #83
        Originally posted by erendorn View Post
        "Whenever" means "once", and this one time was in November 2010, two and a half year ago...
        It was a NVidia employee who said it in their forums. There were more posts like this in multiple forums, but I didn't check every posters background, so by going with "Whenever" I'm pretty much on the safe side.

        Originally posted by erendorn View Post
        And NVidia did not confirm that statement.
        Neither did they reject it, as they'd probably have done, if it was a straight out lie (that's what you're implying, isn't it?).

        Originally posted by erendorn View Post
        As of now, NVidia is probably developing an EGL driver because it's the future anyway, and NVidia is probably ensuring all three Mir, Wayland and SurfaceFlinger compatibility on it because atop an EGL driver all three are super easy.
        Probably.
        Officially, NVidia is doing/promising nothing (outside supporting X).
        What's happening right now is explained by Thomas Voß in his post. You may call him a liar and assume, that NVidia secretly changed it's plans in favor of Wayland, but that's pure speculation without any basis.

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        • #84
          Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
          Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland, but Canonical is working together with NVIDIA towards a more unified driver model sitting on top of EGL.
          Mr. Phoronix speculated about NVidia eventually supportin Wayland, but also linked that to Ubuntu adoption.

          I wonder how you came to such a twisted view.
          I referred to the post from memory. Thanks for providing the link. To quote further: “the collaboration is investigative at this point”. So not even remotely a confirmation that NVidia is even interested in making Mir drivers.


          Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
          Are you sure about this being a fact? If so, they were surprisingly interested in tweaking their drivers for Valves games the last months.
          Go ahead and deny the contents of the official NVidia link I posted. NVidia does not even support the 2012’s Ubuntu LTS officially. OTOH NVidia supports the latest enterprise offerings from both Red Hat and SUSE. That's an undeniable fact provided by an official NVidia document.

          So NVidia fixed bugs exposed by Valve games. Big deal. NVidia fixed these bugs exposed by KDE 4.1: https://liquidat.wordpress.com/2008/...reedy-problem/
          Does that mean to you that NVidia makes its money via KDE? Maybe running Valve games under KDE environments is NVidia's profit path following your logic?

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          • #85
            Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
            What's happening right now is explained by Thomas Voß in his post. You may call him a liar
            Mir developers have a reputation of lying.

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            • #86
              Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
              Mir developers have a reputation of lying.
              Well, who knows.

              If you refer to the claims they made, I was also of the impression that they lied.
              However, there's a slight chance that they're just incompetent and didn't intentionally lie.

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              • #87
                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                I referred to the post from memory. Thanks for providing the link. To quote further: “the collaboration is investigative at this point”. So not even remotely a confirmation that NVidia is even interested in making Mir drivers.
                https://plus.google.com/u/0/11388314...ts/QwMqCgC7c9G

                If that helps. Although it's still no official confirmation the way you'd want, it's more likely to be real than your speculation about NVidia quietly changing their minds, isn't it?

                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                Go ahead and deny the contents of the official NVidia link I posted. NVidia does not even support the 2012’s Ubuntu LTS officially. OTOH NVidia supports the latest enterprise offerings from both Red Hat and SUSE. That's an undeniable fact provided by an official NVidia document.
                So when did RHEL 6.x, OpenSUSE 12.1, Fedora 16 an ultimately Ubuntu 11.10 come out (which you left out - so much about me being a denier)?

                Btw. do you have a vague estimation on how much more money they make with OpenCL on RHEL than they make with supporting Valve/Steam on Ubuntu?

                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                So NVidia fixed bugs exposed by Valve games. Big deal. NVidia fixed these bugs exposed by KDE 4.1: https://liquidat.wordpress.com/2008/...reedy-problem/
                Does that mean to you that NVidia makes its money via KDE? Maybe running Valve games under KDE environments is NVidia's profit path following your logic?
                I could imagine that not screwing some of your users might be helpful if you want them to buy your products. Of course, you could screw every user not using <insert random desktop environment>, but NVidia obviously has another view on that than you. Or do they fix KDE related issues because they don't care about KDE?

                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                Mir developers have a reputation of lying.
                They took back most of their claims about Wayland. They didn't take back what they said about their cooperation with NVidia (and apparently AMD) - neither did one of these companies.
                Last edited by alexThunder; 06-16-2013, 03:34 PM.

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                • #88
                  Originally posted by entropy View Post
                  If you refer to the claims they made, I was also of the impression that they lied.
                  However, there's a slight chance that they're just incompetent and didn't intentionally lie.
                  I wrote it several times already over the past few months but to this day I'm still convinced that Mir is driven by the corporate goal to make Canonical the exclusive entity to grand proprietary licenses to vendors.
                  Handset and other embedded hardware vendors have a long lasting allergy towards anything GPLv3 licensed. Therefore if Canonical succeeds in making Mir an accepted industry standard, everybody not interested in following the GPLv3 must pay Canonical money for a commercial license, especially if Mir’s GPLv3 would leak copyleft licensing into drivers.
                  Wayland OTOH is absolutely free for anybody to make anything – incl. proprietary variants. That's a tragedy from Canonical’s POV because Canonical is desperate to finally make a proper profit.

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                  • #89
                    Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                    They took back most of their claims about Wayland.
                    That doesn't make them less liars (as long as they aren't just incompetent, as previously mentioned).

                    Although it's still no official confirmation the way you'd want, it's more likely to be real than your speculation about NVidia quietly changing their minds, isn't it?
                    They didn't take back what they said about their cooperation with NVidia (and apparently AMD) - neither did one of these companies.
                    I don't see your point. There is no confirmed cooperation between Canonical and Nvidia or AMD. All that the post from Christopher Halse Rogers you have linked to says is
                    We're talking with NVIDIA and AMD to get support for running Mir on their proprietary drivers, and providing an interface for proprietary drivers in general.
                    Let us imagine one possibility how that may look like:

                    Canonical: Will you do drivers for Mir?
                    Nvidia: No.
                    Canonical: Oh, come on, do it.
                    Nvidia: No, now leave us alone.
                    Canonical: AMD, will you do it?
                    AMD: Are you kidding, we can't even keep up with the Xorg drivers, go away.

                    See, they are talking about it. "We are talking with them" has about the same amount of information as "We are not planning" or similar phrases: Zero.
                    Last edited by Vim_User; 06-16-2013, 03:52 PM.

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                    • #90
                      Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                      That doesn't make them less liars (as long as they aren't just incompetent, as previously mentioned).
                      So why did they take back their claims about Wayland and not about cooperating with NVidia and AMD?

                      Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                      I don't see your point. There is no confirmed cooperation between Canonical and Nvidia or AMD.
                      Ok, let's just say they're working together on something EGL related, assuming Canonical isn't lying again instead of cooperation.

                      My point was, that this is probably more real, than the complete opposite/NVidia already directly working on Wayland support.

                      Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                      All that the post from Christopher Halse Rogers you have linked to says is Let us imagine one possibility how that may look like:

                      Canonical: Will you do drivers for Mir?
                      Nvidia: No.
                      Canonical: Oh, come on, do it.
                      Nvidia: No, now leave us alone.
                      Canonical: AMD, will you do it?
                      AMD: Are you kidding, we can't even keep up with the Xorg drivers, go away.

                      See, they are talking about it. "We are talking with them" has about the same amount of information as "We are not planning" or similar phrases: Zero.
                      Ok, you're right. That's how it probably went.

                      Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                      I wrote it several times already over the past few months but to this day I'm still convinced that Mir is driven by the corporate goal to make Canonical the exclusive entity to grand proprietary licenses to vendors.
                      Handset and other embedded hardware vendors have a long lasting allergy towards anything GPLv3 licensed. Therefore if Canonical succeeds in making Mir an accepted industry standard, everybody not interested in following the GPLv3 must pay Canonical money for a commercial license, especially if Mir’s GPLv3 would leak copyleft licensing into drivers.
                      Wayland OTOH is absolutely free for anybody to make anything – incl. proprietary variants. That's a tragedy from Canonical’s POV because Canonical is desperate to finally make a proper profit.
                      Good thing we got at least one person looking through all that conspiracy :P
                      Last edited by alexThunder; 06-16-2013, 04:00 PM.

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