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  • #91
    Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
    So why did they take back their claims about Wayland and not about cooperating with NVidia and AMD?
    Maybe because those claims were easy to directly refute and they got caught, while the nvidia/amd claims are impossible to prove one way or the other unless those companies speak up about it?

    Anyway, that whole "we aren't currently providing wayland support" quote has been taken horribly out of context. The context being, that's standard PR marketspeak, which says nothing. Companies say that all the time, and then the following day they can come out and say they are now providing support. The point of saying things like that is to provide wiggle room to allow them to do whatever they want. If they really were against Wayland, they would have come out and said they were never going to support it.

    Let's just look at the facts.

    Wayland is announced.
    Nvidia says they aren't currently supporting it, but leaves open the possibility they might one day, if it ever gets important enough.
    Mir is announced.
    We learn NVidia has been working on an EGL driver for several months previously to the mir announcement. What exactly do you think that was going to support, if not wayland? There was nothing else on linux that required egl at the time.
    Canonical states they are talking with nvidia to get them to support a common egl driver across both mir and wayland.
    Nvidia officially says nothing, still leaving open the possibility that they could either do nothing and support neither, support both, or anything in between.

    At this point, it's rather obvious that they're going to release an EGL driver, and that it will support both. Because it will be trivial to do so, once either one of them is supported there's basically already support for the other one completed.

    The only real question is when that driver is going to be released, and the answer is going to be, whenever the first major distro is released that requires it. Whether that is Ubuntu or Fedora, we'll have to wait and see.

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
      Although it's still no official confirmation the way you'd want, it's more likely to be real than your speculation about NVidia quietly changing their minds, isn't it?
      Stop all that “NVidia quietly changing their minds” crap. There's no mind to change. Mir drivers where never confirmed. What has been confirmed that NVidia concentrates GNU/Linux-related development on enterprise offerings by Red Hat and SUSE. What has also been published is a preliminary roadmap that states the goal for Wayland by default for Fedora 21.


      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
      So when did RHEL 6.x, OpenSUSE 12.1, Fedora 16 an ultimately Ubuntu 11.10 come out (which you left out - so much about me being a denier)?
      Yeah, you are totally denying reality. NVidia supports the latest enterprise products from both Red Hat and SUSE but not Canonical. Neither Fedora, openSUSE, nor non-LTS Ubuntu releases are enterprise offerings.


      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
      Btw. do you have a vague estimation on how much more money they make with OpenCL on RHEL than they make with supporting Valve/Steam on Ubuntu?
      NVidia makes zero money from Valve games.


      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
      They took back most of their claims about Wayland.
      Didn't change the fact that they lied. They just were caught lying.

      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
      They didn't take back what they said about their cooperation with NVidia (and apparently AMD) - neither did one of these companies.
      Nothing to take back: They just wrote to be in talks. Nothing more, nothing less.
      So far their Mesa patches weren't even accepted upstream. A Wayland back-end for Mesa has been upstreamed.

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
        Good thing we got at least one person looking through all that conspiracy :P
        Canonocal’s CLA is no conspiracy, it’s a fact: http://www.canonical.com/contributors

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
          Maybe because those claims were easy to directly refute and they got caught, while the nvidia/amd claims are impossible to prove one way or the other unless those companies speak up about it?
          Yes, maybe. But wouldn't NVidia/AMD negated their statements by now, if Canonical was lying?

          Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
          Anyway, that whole "we aren't currently providing wayland support" quote has been taken horribly out of context. The context being, that's standard PR marketspeak, which says nothing. Companies say that all the time, and then the following day they can come out and say they are now providing support. The point of saying things like that is to provide wiggle room to allow them to do whatever they want. If they really were against Wayland, they would have come out and said they were never going to support it.
          I know and you're right, but that's not what we're talking about right now.

          Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
          Let's just look at the facts.

          Wayland is announced.
          Nvidia says they aren't currently supporting it, but leaves open the possibility they might one day, if it ever gets important enough.
          Mir is announced.
          We learn NVidia has been working on an EGL driver for several months previously to the mir announcement. What exactly do you think that was going to support, if not wayland? There was nothing else on linux that required egl at the time.
          Probably Mir, as it was several months in development, before it was announced. That's what Canonical said and not neglected by NVidia/AMD.
          Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
          Canonical states they are talking with nvidia to get them to support a common egl driver across both mir and wayland.
          Nvidia officially says nothing, still leaving open the possibility that they could either do nothing and support neither, support both, or anything in between.

          At this point, it's rather obvious that they're going to release an EGL driver, and that it will support both. Because it will be trivial to do so, once either one of them is supported there's basically already support for the other one completed.

          The only real question is when that driver is going to be released, and the answer is going to be, whenever the first major distro is released that requires it. Whether that is Ubuntu or Fedora, we'll have to wait and see.
          Yes, this is what I expect. They we're working on EGL and on a EGL based driver model, which will probably be useful for Wayland, too. IIRC that's what I said from the beginning.

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          Canonocal’s CLA is no conspiracy, it’s a fact: http://www.canonical.com/contributors
          Yes, the CLA is real, but it's certainly not what you just posted.

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          Stop all that “NVidia quietly changing their minds” crap. There's no mind to change. Mir drivers where never confirmed.
          You may have forgotten, that this was referring to your suggestion, that they were already working on drivers for Wayland and didn't have anything to do with Mir.

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          What has been confirmed that NVidia concentrates GNU/Linux-related development on enterprise offerings by Red Hat and SUSE.
          Where is a confirmation, that they concentrate on this? They supported a bunch of distros, which came out at the end of 2011 and some of them simply didn't EOL until now - no words on concentrating on anything.

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          Yeah, you are totally denying reality. NVidia supports the latest enterprise products from both Red Hat and SUSE but not Canonical. Neither Fedora, openSUSE, nor non-LTS Ubuntu releases are enterprise offerings.
          Dude, you provided that link, where distributions are listed as supported, which came out at pretty much the same time. I'm not denying, that some of them EOLed, and others simply didn't. You're the one twisting the info you provided towards your needs.

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          NVidia makes zero money from Valve games.
          So, if a user wan'ts to play Valve games and needs a new graphics card for this and buys a GeForce, NVidia won't get any money? But they're making money everytime someone uses CUDA on RHEL? :P

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          Didn't change the fact that they lied. They just were caught lying.
          You're confusing the words "fact" and "imputation".

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          Nothing to take back: They just wrote to be in talks. Nothing more, nothing less..
          Ehm...we already had that, remember?

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          More to this, we are working together with NVIDIA towards a more unified driver model sitting on top of EGL.
          ...

          You're either constantly forgetting things already discussed or call people liars - and yet you still manage to call me a denier?

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
            You assume that Ubuntu Software Center only works on Ubuntu because Canonical is evil when most likely it works only on their distro because they don't bother to make it work on others.
            Hint: This isn't the case - it specifically checks to see if it's being run on Ubuntu or not, causing it not to work even on direct derivatives (e.g. Mint) that have the exact same file structure and libraries. Simply edit or remove these checks, and it works perfectly.

            That's not just lazy, they took the effort to make everyone else's life harder. I hope Mir flops and takes Ubuntu down with it, what we really don't need is a key desktop component covered by CLA and controlled by a corporation that's actively hostile to the rest of the community.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
              They we're working on EGL and on a EGL based driver model, which will probably be useful for Wayland, too. IIRC that's what I said from the beginning.
              Nobody is working on a driver model. That was clarified in the comments section from which I quoted the relevant sentence.


              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
              Yes, the CLA is real, but it's certainly not what you just posted.
              Wrong. The CLA gives Canonical the exclusive relicensing rights for a project. That is real. That's what's written in the CLA.


              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
              You may have forgotten, that this was referring to your suggestion, that they were already working on drivers for Wayland and didn't have anything to do with Mir.
              RHEL and SLES are the only current Linux distribution releases that are officially supported by NVidia.
              Fedora 21 and therefore RHEL 8 will use Wayland by default.
              NVidia will therefore make Wayland drivers at some point.


              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
              Where is a confirmation, that they concentrate on this? They supported a bunch of distros, which came out at the end of 2011 and some of them simply didn't EOL until now - no words on concentrating on anything.
              RHEL 6 and SLES 11 are the current releases. Ubuntu 11.10 is not current, openSUSE 12.1 is not current, Fedora 16 is not current.


              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
              So, if a user wan'ts to play Valve games and needs a new graphics card for this and buys a GeForce, NVidia won't get any money? But they're making money everytime someone uses CUDA on RHEL? :P
              NVidia has the monopoly on CUDA. The profit margins are high in that business sector.
              NVidia has no gaming monopoly. The profit margins are low. Valve games work on old GPUs (or crappy on-board Intels) – no new one needed.


              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
              You're either constantly forgetting things already discussed or call people liars - and yet you still manage to call me a denier?
              You're denying the sentence from the comments section I quoted which clearly stated that the situation is just in an “investigative” state. That's not working on Mir drivers. That's trying to persuade NVidia to make Mir drivers.

              Red Hat is too big a force to ignore in GPGPU computing. Another proof: http://www.nvidia.com/object/persona...computing.html
              NVidia supports three Red Hat platforms (4 if you count Fedora) and only one Ubuntu release.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland,
                Not quite. Nvidia were asked - quite a long time ago, before the whole Mir thing blew up - if they had plans to support Wayland, and replied something to the effect of "no plans at the current time" (emphasis mine). This should not be taken as holding a position on the Mir vs Wayland situation, nor (given how long ago they said it) on what their current plans are.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                  Yes, maybe. But wouldn't NVidia/AMD negated their statements by now, if Canonical was lying?
                  Not necessarily, because there is no reason for NVidia/AMD to publicly call them liars. It doesn't make sense to piss off another company you might one day work with, for no reason.

                  Note: i don't actually think Canonical is lying about this, primarily because "discussing" means they are promising nothing and just saying they are trying to get something going. I'm just saying, if you think they're a bunch of liars it's not a huge leap of faith to think they could be lying about that as well.

                  Probably Mir, as it was several months in development, before it was announced. That's what Canonical said and not neglected by NVidia/AMD.
                  I was almost certain Canonical said that they hadn't told anyone about Mir ahead of time. Including NVidia or AMD. That would mean the EGL driver in progress had to be targeting wayland, unless i'm wrong about that and they were told ahead of time.
                  Last edited by smitty3268; 06-16-2013, 08:00 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by k1l_ View Post
                    The Wikipage about MIR had wrong information. But that was corrected the next morning and it was apologized for.
                    Talk is cheap. Sure, they retracted all their false statements, but the damage was already done - first impressions count. And between those lies and their previous secrecy, they'd made a really clear statement of the attitude they were taking towards cooperation. Maybe it wasn't their intention, but what reason did anyone have to trust them afterwards?

                    Originally posted by k1l_ View Post
                    I do think not accepting distro-specific patches is valid, even i think its just a fake-argument to not support MIR at all.
                    Think what you want, but it's clear you've never been in the position of having to support something like that. It's a *lot* of extra work...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
                      Talk is cheap. Sure, they retracted all their false statements, but the damage was already done - first impressions count. And between those lies and their previous secrecy, they'd made a really clear statement of the attitude they were taking towards cooperation. Maybe it wasn't their intention, but what reason did anyone have to trust them afterwards?
                      that correction of a mistake and apologizing for that is not enough, shows whats really wrong in the linux "community". that should be thought about!


                      Originally posted by Delgarde View Post
                      Think what you want, but it's clear you've never been in the position of having to support something like that. It's a *lot* of extra work...
                      We will see what happens when its not distro-specific anymore when/if MIR runs on other distros. time will tell.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by k1l_ View Post
                        that correction of a mistake and apologizing for that is not enough, shows whats really wrong in the linux "community". that should be thought about!
                        An apology is just meaningless words, in the absence of actions that give it weight. So far, I've not seen any attempt by Mir to rebuild the bridges they burned on their first day...

                        Originally posted by k1l_ View Post
                        We will see what happens when its not distro-specific anymore when/if MIR runs on other distros. time will tell.
                        *If* that ever happens (and I think it unlikely, myself), then I'd expect the KDE developers to at least consider accepting the patches. But even then, I'd expect them to be judging on technical merits, and from what we know about Mir being an unstable target in terms of API (as the Mir devs acknowledge), they may still be reluctant to accept them without some guarantee of stability from the Mir upstream...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                          Probably Mir, as it was several months in development, before it was announced. That's what Canonical said and not neglected by NVidia/AMD.
                          Well, considering a few facts about the whole situation, if they did tell nVidia and AMD of Mir before the public announcement, they (the management, who calls the shots on this subjects) are just a bunch of douchebags. They didn't tell the LightDM maintainer, who they expected since the original announcement to support Mir, even when AFAIK he's a Canonical employee, they just kept with the official statement that they'd use Wayland, when they knew six months ahead that they wouldn't (if they still expected to use Wayland, they wouldn't even start all the work on Mir), but they do tell nVidia? Not only they are liars, they are total jerks.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                            it's more likely to be real than your speculation about NVidia quietly changing their minds, isn't it?
                            Nvidia evaluating adding Wayland support, and that was already a year ago (at that time, NVidia was obviously still not evaluating adding Mir support ).

                            But it's not a surprise, it has always been the case, and it's just what you'd expect from them: they are looking a what it will cost them to support something, and what they will gain, and when. Then they make decisions based on that. But until there is actual support, they'll never confirm anything. If you ask them about mir support, you'll get the same answer.

                            Comment


                            • BTW, is there any write-up which deals with the complexity of an EGL driver for Wayland/Mir compared to an X driver?

                              AFAIK, some stuff is delegated to the driver, like multi-monitor handling.
                              OTHO, it sounds like a driver for Wayland/Mir is far easier to support for AMD/NVidia as you have not to deal
                              with all the 2d-cruft present/required for X (which causes many problems and burns lots of man hours, I guess).

                              Is this correct?
                              Last edited by entropy; 06-17-2013, 04:56 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by entropy View Post
                                BTW, is there any write-up which deals with the complexity of an EGL driver for Wayland/Mir compared to an X driver?

                                AFAIK, some stuff is delegated to the driver, like multi-monitor handling.
                                OTHO, it sounds like a driver for Wayland/Mir is far easier to support for AMD/NVidia as you have not to deal
                                with all the 2d-cruft present/required for X (which causes many problems and burns lots of man hours, I guess).

                                Is this correct?
                                Before I write anything else, I must make you notice you should take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, because my knowledge in the area is too shallow.
                                But, as I see it, what you said is correct by the wrong causes. It doesn't need to deal with X specifics, which are an extra to the support they need to add just for running on Windows (which is their main target in general because of market share), but supporting 2D has nothing to do with the X specifics. I don't know if OpenGL and EGL deals with it, but some cards (I'm not sure if modern cards still ship it) have a 2D engine and it could be managed by a driver even with no X. The problem would be, in the case OpenGL and its derivatives doesn't deal with it, you need another generic interface.
                                About the complexity, I guess it's the same as an OpenGL driver, since AFAIK is a specification derived from it.

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