Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Mir Still Causing Concerns By Ubuntu Derivatives

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Canonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.
    Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland, but Canonical is working together with NVIDIA towards a more unified driver model sitting on top of EGL.
    Mr. Phoronix speculated about NVidia eventually supportin Wayland, but also linked that to Ubuntu adoption.

    I wonder how you came to such a twisted view.

    Afaik Mir needs EGL and Wayland is also capable of utilizing it.

    Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
    Speculation aside:
    Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
    Are you sure about this being a fact? If so, they were surprisingly interested in tweaking their drivers for Valves games the last months.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
      Well, my post disappeared again. If I'm being moderated, please PM me and delete this post as well, I'd like to know to stop bothering in trying to explain AGAIN what I already said like four times.
      If not, I wonder what is going on.
      You are (most probably) not being moderated.

      A chunk of my posts also went missing in here as well, noticeably during the server migration period.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Sonadow View Post
        You are (most probably) not being moderated.

        A chunk of my posts also went missing in here as well, noticeably during the server migration period.
        Well, then I'll just repeat the apologize in case it wasn't read, and the rest I'm just too bored of rewriting it to put it again.
        The FUD was accidental, I wasn't aware ATM that Wayland only needs EGL to work (thus, the driver developed for Mir should be useful for Wayland too), so I apologize for that.

        Comment


        • #79
          NVidia said it was going to Support EGL back at the XDC2012

          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
          Canonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.

          Speculation aside:
          Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads
          NVidia said it was going to Support EGL back at the XDC2012 its not do to Canonical its just more BS form Canonical
          http://youtu.be/LesAb4sTXgA?t=9m58s

          Comment


          • #80
            OK, writing all the text again, because my posting seems to got lost.
            Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
            HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
            MIR wants to use the EGL Platform which is also the target of Wayland. So having concerns that MIR will "steal" the big names driver-support from Wayland is not appropriate here. That was explained several times after the MIR-Announcment. (I think people would have read that when they were not that busy flaming about MIR)


            Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
            There's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.
            The Wikipage about MIR had wrong information. But that was corrected the next morning and it was apologized for. IMHO that was a mistake which lead ubuntu/canonical to change the routines for making anouncments but that should be forgiven. Especially the KDE site used that mistake to start a real mudslinging. Not that prominent KDE Developers take every interview, mailinglist and blogpost to spread FUD about Ubuntu, Unity, MIR and Canonical. They even talk about a possible adhortatory letter because Shuttleworth tried to reach a hand and said he has "absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir." That is just ridiculous how KDE keeps to play the dirty game: Complaining about Ubuntu spreading FUD but ranting about ubuntu-fanboys and spreading FUD about Ubuntu themselves (dangerous rolling release, ubuntu will disregard the desktop, etc). Even in the ML-thread about solving the issue with kubuntu they keep on talking badly about Ubuntu: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/037277.html
            So talking about FUD and pointing only at Ubuntu/Canonical is just one site of the medal.

            I do think not accepting distro-specific patches is valid, even i think its just a fake-argument to not support MIR at all. BUT helping kubuntu and working, together with ubuntu/canonical, on a solution to keep kubuntu alive. I see again some reaching hand from ubuntu/canonical site, but all i see from KDE is just the drama.

            Comment


            • #81
              Wayland does require one more Wayland-specific extension, though (albeit it could probably be implemented in software if it comes to that).

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland
                "Whenever" means "once", and this one time was in November 2010, two and a half year ago...
                And NVidia did not confirm that statement.

                As of now, NVidia is probably developing an EGL driver because it's the future anyway, and NVidia is probably ensuring all three Mir, Wayland and SurfaceFlinger compatibility on it because atop an EGL driver all three are super easy.
                Probably.
                Officially, NVidia is doing/promising nothing (outside supporting X).

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by erendorn View Post
                  "Whenever" means "once", and this one time was in November 2010, two and a half year ago...
                  It was a NVidia employee who said it in their forums. There were more posts like this in multiple forums, but I didn't check every posters background, so by going with "Whenever" I'm pretty much on the safe side.

                  Originally posted by erendorn View Post
                  And NVidia did not confirm that statement.
                  Neither did they reject it, as they'd probably have done, if it was a straight out lie (that's what you're implying, isn't it?).

                  Originally posted by erendorn View Post
                  As of now, NVidia is probably developing an EGL driver because it's the future anyway, and NVidia is probably ensuring all three Mir, Wayland and SurfaceFlinger compatibility on it because atop an EGL driver all three are super easy.
                  Probably.
                  Officially, NVidia is doing/promising nothing (outside supporting X).
                  What's happening right now is explained by Thomas Voß in his post. You may call him a liar and assume, that NVidia secretly changed it's plans in favor of Wayland, but that's pure speculation without any basis.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                    Whenever asked, Nvidia said, they had no plans to support Wayland, but Canonical is working together with NVIDIA towards a more unified driver model sitting on top of EGL.
                    Mr. Phoronix speculated about NVidia eventually supportin Wayland, but also linked that to Ubuntu adoption.

                    I wonder how you came to such a twisted view.
                    I referred to the post from memory. Thanks for providing the link. To quote further: “the collaboration is investigative at this point”. So not even remotely a confirmation that NVidia is even interested in making Mir drivers.


                    Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                    Are you sure about this being a fact? If so, they were surprisingly interested in tweaking their drivers for Valves games the last months.
                    Go ahead and deny the contents of the official NVidia link I posted. NVidia does not even support the 2012’s Ubuntu LTS officially. OTOH NVidia supports the latest enterprise offerings from both Red Hat and SUSE. That's an undeniable fact provided by an official NVidia document.

                    So NVidia fixed bugs exposed by Valve games. Big deal. NVidia fixed these bugs exposed by KDE 4.1: https://liquidat.wordpress.com/2008/...reedy-problem/
                    Does that mean to you that NVidia makes its money via KDE? Maybe running Valve games under KDE environments is NVidia's profit path following your logic?

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                      What's happening right now is explained by Thomas Voß in his post. You may call him a liar
                      Mir developers have a reputation of lying.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                        Mir developers have a reputation of lying.
                        Well, who knows.

                        If you refer to the claims they made, I was also of the impression that they lied.
                        However, there's a slight chance that they're just incompetent and didn't intentionally lie.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                          I referred to the post from memory. Thanks for providing the link. To quote further: “the collaboration is investigative at this point”. So not even remotely a confirmation that NVidia is even interested in making Mir drivers.
                          https://plus.google.com/u/0/11388314...ts/QwMqCgC7c9G

                          If that helps. Although it's still no official confirmation the way you'd want, it's more likely to be real than your speculation about NVidia quietly changing their minds, isn't it?

                          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                          Go ahead and deny the contents of the official NVidia link I posted. NVidia does not even support the 2012’s Ubuntu LTS officially. OTOH NVidia supports the latest enterprise offerings from both Red Hat and SUSE. That's an undeniable fact provided by an official NVidia document.
                          So when did RHEL 6.x, OpenSUSE 12.1, Fedora 16 an ultimately Ubuntu 11.10 come out (which you left out - so much about me being a denier)?

                          Btw. do you have a vague estimation on how much more money they make with OpenCL on RHEL than they make with supporting Valve/Steam on Ubuntu?

                          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                          So NVidia fixed bugs exposed by Valve games. Big deal. NVidia fixed these bugs exposed by KDE 4.1: https://liquidat.wordpress.com/2008/...reedy-problem/
                          Does that mean to you that NVidia makes its money via KDE? Maybe running Valve games under KDE environments is NVidia's profit path following your logic?
                          I could imagine that not screwing some of your users might be helpful if you want them to buy your products. Of course, you could screw every user not using <insert random desktop environment>, but NVidia obviously has another view on that than you. Or do they fix KDE related issues because they don't care about KDE?

                          Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                          Mir developers have a reputation of lying.
                          They took back most of their claims about Wayland. They didn't take back what they said about their cooperation with NVidia (and apparently AMD) - neither did one of these companies.
                          Last edited by alexThunder; 06-16-2013, 03:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by entropy View Post
                            If you refer to the claims they made, I was also of the impression that they lied.
                            However, there's a slight chance that they're just incompetent and didn't intentionally lie.
                            I wrote it several times already over the past few months but to this day I'm still convinced that Mir is driven by the corporate goal to make Canonical the exclusive entity to grand proprietary licenses to vendors.
                            Handset and other embedded hardware vendors have a long lasting allergy towards anything GPLv3 licensed. Therefore if Canonical succeeds in making Mir an accepted industry standard, everybody not interested in following the GPLv3 must pay Canonical money for a commercial license, especially if Mir’s GPLv3 would leak copyleft licensing into drivers.
                            Wayland OTOH is absolutely free for anybody to make anything – incl. proprietary variants. That's a tragedy from Canonical’s POV because Canonical is desperate to finally make a proper profit.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by alexThunder View Post
                              They took back most of their claims about Wayland.
                              That doesn't make them less liars (as long as they aren't just incompetent, as previously mentioned).

                              Although it's still no official confirmation the way you'd want, it's more likely to be real than your speculation about NVidia quietly changing their minds, isn't it?
                              They didn't take back what they said about their cooperation with NVidia (and apparently AMD) - neither did one of these companies.
                              I don't see your point. There is no confirmed cooperation between Canonical and Nvidia or AMD. All that the post from Christopher Halse Rogers you have linked to says is
                              We're talking with NVIDIA and AMD to get support for running Mir on their proprietary drivers, and providing an interface for proprietary drivers in general.
                              Let us imagine one possibility how that may look like:

                              Canonical: Will you do drivers for Mir?
                              Nvidia: No.
                              Canonical: Oh, come on, do it.
                              Nvidia: No, now leave us alone.
                              Canonical: AMD, will you do it?
                              AMD: Are you kidding, we can't even keep up with the Xorg drivers, go away.

                              See, they are talking about it. "We are talking with them" has about the same amount of information as "We are not planning" or similar phrases: Zero.
                              Last edited by Vim_User; 06-16-2013, 03:52 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                                That doesn't make them less liars (as long as they aren't just incompetent, as previously mentioned).
                                So why did they take back their claims about Wayland and not about cooperating with NVidia and AMD?

                                Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                                I don't see your point. There is no confirmed cooperation between Canonical and Nvidia or AMD.
                                Ok, let's just say they're working together on something EGL related, assuming Canonical isn't lying again instead of cooperation.

                                My point was, that this is probably more real, than the complete opposite/NVidia already directly working on Wayland support.

                                Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                                All that the post from Christopher Halse Rogers you have linked to says is Let us imagine one possibility how that may look like:

                                Canonical: Will you do drivers for Mir?
                                Nvidia: No.
                                Canonical: Oh, come on, do it.
                                Nvidia: No, now leave us alone.
                                Canonical: AMD, will you do it?
                                AMD: Are you kidding, we can't even keep up with the Xorg drivers, go away.

                                See, they are talking about it. "We are talking with them" has about the same amount of information as "We are not planning" or similar phrases: Zero.
                                Ok, you're right. That's how it probably went.

                                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                                I wrote it several times already over the past few months but to this day I'm still convinced that Mir is driven by the corporate goal to make Canonical the exclusive entity to grand proprietary licenses to vendors.
                                Handset and other embedded hardware vendors have a long lasting allergy towards anything GPLv3 licensed. Therefore if Canonical succeeds in making Mir an accepted industry standard, everybody not interested in following the GPLv3 must pay Canonical money for a commercial license, especially if Mir’s GPLv3 would leak copyleft licensing into drivers.
                                Wayland OTOH is absolutely free for anybody to make anything – incl. proprietary variants. That's a tragedy from Canonical’s POV because Canonical is desperate to finally make a proper profit.
                                Good thing we got at least one person looking through all that conspiracy :P
                                Last edited by alexThunder; 06-16-2013, 04:00 PM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X