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  • #61
    Originally posted by bartek View Post
    I dont care about fracture, Im an end user. i just want a system that serves my needs. I want to use my smartphone as my desktop computer. At this point Ubuntu is the only one to give my needs a go. If they feel Mir is the way to go ... So be it.
    If that's the way that you feel, then why are you even commenting on this subject at all? None of this will matter to you at all, Ubuntu is just going to do whatever they want, and that's what you will use as a user. What does it matter what the Ubuntu derivatives think or do?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
      You assume that Ubuntu Software Center only works on Ubuntu because Canonical is evil when most likely it works only on their distro because they don't bother to make it work on others. It would take a lot more work to make it as distro agnostic as possible and then maintain it along with all the data of every user's download list. It wouldn't be impossible of course but they don't want to focus on that. They have a lot to get done in a short amount of time. Better focus on what it will gain them the largest market share possible for now.
      They wouldn't have so much to get done if management didn't insist their software developers re-invent the wheel.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by bartek View Post

        I dont care about fracture, Im an end user. i just want a system that serves my needs. I want to use my smartphone as my desktop computer.
        One question: Why?

        So let's put aside all issues of compatibility between different CPU architectures - let's ignore the fact that you can't run x86 binaries on any ARM-based CPUs (which means, pretty much, no games, no proprietary software, unless the developers specifically port those applications)... let's even graciously assume that the ARM platform will become powerful enough to run those applications, and that the mobile smartphone GPUs will become powerful enough to support all desktop needs. Let's even ignore the fact that most ARM-applications, for now, are developed for one or two platforms - Android and iOS, neither of which can be run on Ubuntu, due to Canonical stupidly deciding not to implement Android-compatibility.

        Even then, the question remains: why? You come home, and want to use your desktop, with the comfortable and ergonomic interface that the combination of a keyboard, a large screen and a mouse provides. You then have to hook up your smartphone to all of these things, by some kind of interface that combines HDMI and at least several counts of USB... and then, the piddling 64 GiB storage space of your smartphone gets used up, and you need more space. Add another peripheral, an external harddrive.

        Wouldn't it at this point be easier to simply have a separate desktop computer which you can connect your phone to? That way you can even use both independently. After all, you already need the space for your monitor, keyboard and mouse, so a slim router-sized mini-desktop unit won't be much of an issue space-wise. The whole smartphone-as-desktop-computer seems like an ill-thought-out concept that serves no purpose and solves problems that no one has. No wonder it has never become popular.

        At this point Ubuntu is the only one to give my needs a go. If they feel Mir is the way to go ... So be it.
        If Ubuntu jumps off a bridge, will you do it too?

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        • #64
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          One question: Why?

          So let's put aside all issues of compatibility between different CPU architectures - let's ignore the fact that you can't run x86 binaries on any ARM-based CPUs (which means, pretty much, no games, no proprietary software, unless the developers specifically port those applications)... let's even graciously assume that the ARM platform will become powerful enough to run those applications, and that the mobile smartphone GPUs will become powerful enough to support all desktop needs. Let's even ignore the fact that most ARM-applications, for now, are developed for one or two platforms - Android and iOS, neither of which can be run on Ubuntu, due to Canonical stupidly deciding not to implement Android-compatibility.

          Even then, the question remains: why? You come home, and want to use your desktop, with the comfortable and ergonomic interface that the combination of a keyboard, a large screen and a mouse provides. You then have to hook up your smartphone to all of these things, by some kind of interface that combines HDMI and at least several counts of USB... and then, the piddling 64 GiB storage space of your smartphone gets used up, and you need more space. Add another peripheral, an external harddrive.

          Wouldn't it at this point be easier to simply have a separate desktop computer which you can connect your phone to? That way you can even use both independently. After all, you already need the space for your monitor, keyboard and mouse, so a slim router-sized mini-desktop unit won't be much of an issue space-wise. The whole smartphone-as-desktop-computer seems like an ill-thought-out concept that serves no purpose and solves problems that no one has. No wonder it has never become popular.
          Convenience is an answer to why. The same apps (which is possible with FOSS or web based stuff) and familiarity. Possible use cases: Use your mobile phone to make a presentation, plug it in a monitor/keyboard and have a full (although limited) desktop (or even remote desk from your PC) away from your desktop PC. If you add seamless syncing with your desktop PC (NFC tap and sync over wifi or something) when you have something really good. Someone needs to do this IMO.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
            Convenience is an answer to why. The same apps (which is possible with FOSS or web based stuff) and familiarity. Possible use cases: Use your mobile phone to make a presentation, plug it in a monitor/keyboard and have a full (although limited) desktop (or even remote desk from your PC) away from your desktop PC. If you add seamless syncing with your desktop PC (NFC tap and sync over wifi or something) when you have something really good. Someone needs to do this IMO.
            I don't follow. You can already have the same apps and familiarity by just installing the same apps on both devices. About the presentation: if it will need a special dock, then it's a no-go; if it won't, then the phone will have to have a bunch of USB and HDMI ports. Then you will also have to hope that whatever monitor you're trying to use actually has an HDMI connection. If you're using a projector, even more so. Pretty sure there won't be a VGA or DVI ports even on a dock, or otherwise it would be too big. As for syncing what desktop PC, if you're intending to use the phone as a desktop?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by GreatEmerald View Post
              I don't follow. You can already have the same apps and familiarity by just installing the same apps on both devices. About the presentation: if it will need a special dock, then it's a no-go; if it won't, then the phone will have to have a bunch of USB and HDMI ports. Then you will also have to hope that whatever monitor you're trying to use actually has an HDMI connection. If you're using a projector, even more so. Pretty sure there won't be a VGA or DVI ports even on a dock, or otherwise it would be too big. As for syncing what desktop PC, if you're intending to use the phone as a desktop?
              Yes some technical issues exist (connections with screens/projector mainly). The idea is to be able to use your mobile as a pc away from your pc. (inb4 everyone has a laptop ) Or standalone if you don't do heavy stuff. Therefore you "need" to have the option on launching a full desktop when you plug a screen to it.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
                How and why?
                A) Canonical does not want a stable interface to Mir. It would have to be a cat and mouse game chasing Canonical's erratic interface changes of Mir.
                B) Mir has zero technological benefit over Wayland. In fact is way behind in development compared to Wayland.
                Canonical is so full of BS it's not funny as you will see Wayland will end up having a huge technological benefit over Mir to the point developers will pick Wayland over Mir any day of the week "server-side *only* had performance/power benefits on certain ARM chips, on x86 client-side is preferred" now that moblie is moving into x86 and Mir aim is ARM it will take a lost once more, just wait for Amd and intel to kill off ARM, the funny part is MS has did more to the Linux Kernal then Canonical

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                  (inb4 everyone has a laptop )
                  Netbook!

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by 89c51 View Post
                    Convenience is an answer to why. The same apps (which is possible with FOSS or web based stuff) and familiarity. Possible use cases: Use your mobile phone to make a presentation, plug it in a monitor/keyboard and have a full (although limited) desktop (or even remote desk from your PC) away from your desktop PC. If you add seamless syncing with your desktop PC (NFC tap and sync over wifi or something) when you have something really good. Someone needs to do this IMO.
                    Same apps - you can already run the same apps on the desktop even without having the phone be your desktop. Especially if it's FOSS or web based stuff. I fail to see how that is an argument for using your phone as desktop computer.
                    Using phone to have a presentation - again runs to the same issue: if the presentation place already has to have a keyboard, mouse, monitor - why not also have the CPU? With miniature desktop kits and all-in-ones becoming more prominent, it's becoming easier to put the CPU in the monitor, keyboard or heck, why not the mouse. If the CPU can fit in a phone, it can fit into any of those. And you'd still have the option to plug in your phone and remote to it from the desktop.

                    Your arguments are good if you're arguing for having good, open remote/sync protocols between the desktop and phone, but having the phone act as the desktop CPU itself (which was the original argument) still makes no sense.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                      Diverging from linux is a good thing. Linux itself isn't that great for the end user and they are focused on these users and try to fill their needs. This can be done by trying to convince the linux people that that is what users want or they can do it themselves and let other complain how it's not fair that they don't contribute upstream. They chose the second one because they don't want to wait another 10 years for the stallman freaks to wake up.
                      Do you jackasses even know what Linux is? If you mean diverging from other operation systems that use the Linux kernel then you (read: Ubuntu) should stop using the Linux kernel because that's what most of these (including Andoid) share. The faster people understand Ubuntu != "Linux" the better, it's iconoclastic behavior is detrimental.

                      Most of what I wanted to say GreatEmerald already did for me however I wish you Ubuntu trolls luck, it's going to be an uphill battle I think.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by dee. View Post
                        Same apps - you can already run the same apps on the desktop even without having the phone be your desktop. Especially if it's FOSS or web based stuff. I fail to see how that is an argument for using your phone as desktop computer.
                        Using phone to have a presentation - again runs to the same issue: if the presentation place already has to have a keyboard, mouse, monitor - why not also have the CPU? With miniature desktop kits and all-in-ones becoming more prominent, it's becoming easier to put the CPU in the monitor, keyboard or heck, why not the mouse. If the CPU can fit in a phone, it can fit into any of those. And you'd still have the option to plug in your phone and remote to it from the desktop.

                        Your arguments are good if you're arguing for having good, open remote/sync protocols between the desktop and phone, but having the phone act as the desktop CPU itself (which was the original argument) still makes no sense.
                        Same apps not only as in name/features bit also as an interface. Ie. full firefox on a desktop full FF when you plug your mobile on a screen and launch the included desktop. As i said monitors (read:connections) are a bit hairy but as a mouse keyboard you can use the phone itself. The screen can act as a trackpad and you can have a keyboard on it as well (slide to have keyboard appear). CPU is not what i argue about. The "have your personal desktop" everywhere is what i believe would be nice to have.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                          They are not unreasonable. When you accept a patch, you accept the responsability of maintaining the code including the patch, which would probably be a nightmare, not only because then every other distribution would have a case to say "hey, but you did accept this distro specific patches!", but because one of the main features Mir announces is to be PROTOCOL AGNOSTIC, and KWin and KDE DEPENDS on having a fixed protocol. You see where this goes? Since they need to know the protocol, which Mir abstracts, they're pretty much screwed even if they have the will to port it. Even if they make it work, since it's protocol agnostic (which is really, really useful to make Unity portable, but pretty much a pain in the ass for everyone that depends on a protocol) it's likely to break the API, then you'd need to make MORE distro specific patches. Not only this would displace resources from other things, but it's known that new code is very likely to introduce new bugs, so they'll probably be distorting for the worse the whole other users' experience with KDE. It's pretty much a reasonable response to not support it altogether. Specially when it's open source: you want KDE on Mir, then fork it regularly and maintain it in your own branch without screwing up all the Wayland and X.org users. That would be what you suggest later, but it's important to keep in mind that it's not just because of a whim, but there are actual valid reasons.
                          I'm not saying that the KWin project should be forced to accept Mir patches, no one is saying that. And yes, I understand that it's a big issue on keeping 3rd party contributions up to date and bug free.
                          I was saying that the KWin project should not have discounted acceptance of any Mir patches right from the get go without reviewing any code.
                          Furthermore, the KWin guys wouldn't be forced to carry buggy patches if it ever came to that, they could easily rip the Mir specific code out if it ever came to that.
                          So those issues you raised weren't really issues in the first place.
                          Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                          HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
                          Actually that's not what's happening at all. Mir is targeting the same drivers as Wayland and to a lesser extent Android, so any incompatibility argument at this point is FUD, which is ironic because your post was mostly about Mir spreading FUD against Wayland even though they publicly acknowledged this and apologised.
                          Is it okay for you to take the other side and not be called a hypocrite?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                            The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so.
                            Canonical confirmed back in March to be in talks with NVidia to persuade them to offer drivers based on a common EGL platform. I understood that comment in a way that Canonical not persuaded NVidia to make Mir drivers and then out of goodwill want them to support Wayland as well. I understood that comment that NVidia is already working on Wayland support and that Canonical wants NVidia to support Mir as well.

                            Speculation aside:
                            Fact is that NVidia & Co. make their money within the Linux ecosystem under RHEL and they support Linux mainly for GPGPU computing (CUDA/OpenCL). NVidia supported Ubuntu specifically once but hasn't updated its support for anything newer than 10.04: https://developer.nvidia.com/cuda-downloads

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                              HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
                              It was told right from the start, that MIR will use the EGL System and wanting Nvidia and others to bring the drivers for the EGL Platform. Wayland wants to use the EGL Platform, too. So there is no need of beeing sore about Ubuntu/Canonical "stealing" the video drivers!

                              Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                              There's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.
                              There was some false information on the MIR Wiki Page. That was apologized for and it was corrected on the next morning.
                              But that is no reason for the mudslinging that especially the KDE site is running since then. While everyone pretends that it could have been the perfect cooperation with ubuntu/Canonical and the Wayland site the time after the MIR announcement (again: the bad wiki site was a big mistake) showed, that there was alot of tension behind the scenes.
                              But back to the FUD: The KWIN developer told FUD about ubuntu several times himselv on big interviews and even wanted to send a adhortatory letter because Shuttleworth said in his blog he has " absolutely no doubt that Kwin will work just fine on top of Mir."
                              In the ML-thread i see again ubuntu and canonical trying to give a hand to the KDE site and the KDE site again tries to put unity and ubuntu/canonical into a bad light (https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ub...ne/037277.html).

                              i do think not accepting distro-specific-patches is a valid reason(, even i think its just a fake-reason just to not support MIR). But working together with ubuntu/canonical to keep kubuntu alive should be on KDE's agenda, too.

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                              • #75
                                Well, my post disappeared again. If I'm being moderated, please PM me and delete this post as well, I'd like to know to stop bothering in trying to explain AGAIN what I already said like four times.
                                If not, I wonder what is going on.

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