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Mir Still Causing Concerns By Ubuntu Derivatives

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  • #16
    Originally posted by YAFU View Post
    My vote is for the whole Kubuntu team effort focusing on keeping Netrunner as the only distribution by Blue Systems. Making Netrunner derived directly from Debian instead of Ubuntu, and use Wayland. BlueSystems could provide the equipment/infrastructure for packaging and for repositories.
    Sounds more like supporting Tanglu directly.

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    • #17
      X

      continue with X like redhat and others wants.

      the only derivates who really matters are mint, zorin and lubuntu the others are dead. if ubuntu 14.04 with mir is good lot of people who use zorin or mint will use ubuntu mir without problems. linux mint really have a headache with mir but they resolve the gnome 3 problem, we need to wait and see.

      kubuntu is one of worst kde distro opensuse, archlinux (with kde ofc),mageia are a lot better.

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      • #18
        Goodbye Ubuntu/Lubuntu, I switched back to Debian

        When Ubuntu first went with this Unity thing, I did give it a try but wasn't all that impressed. No matter, there was always Xubuntu and Lubuntu. I finally settled on Lubuntu, and used it for about three years. I didn't feel that Unity was hurting Ubuntu all that much, because it's use was optional. Even if it is the default, you aren't forced to use it, so it's no big deal.

        But this Mir thing is different. It really is an Ubuntu-only project, and you won't have the option to switch to Wayland with a few mouse clicks or command line tricks. This threatens to fragment Linux on the desktop. I wish that Mark Shuttleworth would at least explain just WHY he thinks Mir is so much better than Wayland. To date, all I've read in his interviews is that he brushes off any criticism of Mir and pretends there is no issue here. He's trashing Canonical's relationship with the developer community, and I don't understand how this benefits him, or anyone else.

        So I finally decided to go back to my roots, Debian. Running Debian Sid now. More specifically, the Siduction distro, LXDE spin. Other spins include Gnome, KDE, Razor-QT and XFCE. Loving it so far. I'll be looking forward to Wayland on Debian.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Candide View Post
          When Ubuntu first went with this Unity thing, I did give it a try but wasn't all that impressed. No matter, there was always Xubuntu and Lubuntu. I finally settled on Lubuntu, and used it for about three years. I didn't feel that Unity was hurting Ubuntu all that much, because it's use was optional. Even if it is the default, you aren't forced to use it, so it's no big deal.

          But this Mir thing is different. It really is an Ubuntu-only project, and you won't have the option to switch to Wayland with a few mouse clicks or command line tricks. This threatens to fragment Linux on the desktop. I wish that Mark Shuttleworth would at least explain just WHY he thinks Mir is so much better than Wayland. To date, all I've read in his interviews is that he brushes off any criticism of Mir and pretends there is no issue here. He's trashing Canonical's relationship with the developer community, and I don't understand how this benefits him, or anyone else.

          So I finally decided to go back to my roots, Debian. Running Debian Sid now. More specifically, the Siduction distro, LXDE spin. Other spins include Gnome, KDE, Razor-QT and XFCE. Loving it so far. I'll be looking forward to Wayland on Debian.
          I don't see how offering an additional choice of software fragments the 'Linux community' any more than it already is.
          Choice is good, removing the option of choice from the users and developers is a sure fire way to start limiting Linux as a whole and sending it down the path of Android as a packaged solution aimed towards a strict set of purposes.
          Sure, Ubuntu is aiming to do this on their desktop, mobile and convergence platforms but that's the market they're aiming for and they've decided that Mir was a better way of delivering that vision. I would have hoped that since it was a FOSS project that the community response would have been better, but alas that is simply not enough these days.
          On a side note I like Debian as a stable server platform, but it has given me too many gripes in the past with binary drivers and other non-FOSS software for me to consider installing it in a desktop role.

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          • #20
            I don't think this is much an issue, as long as Ubuntu is still based on Debian, it should include its packages in their repositories, and that means Wayland and Xorg should remain there. Since the community derivatives choose which packages to use, they can ignore Mir completely.

            If on the other hand they remove critical packages (such as wayland), then i suppose community distros will base themselves on Debian and recreate what they need, or use Ubuntu repositories and add the missing packages in their own repository (Mint/Bodhi style).

            So there is nothing to worry about. Perhaps losing the "*buntu" from their name might make sense for some.

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            • #21
              Having read the entire mailing list thread so far, the way this will be resolved is inevitable:
              • Ubuntu is going to package Wayland in its main repository and support it. There's no way around it. In fact, see the quote below.
              • Either the flavors will use Wayland as the system compositor and completely eschew Mir, or a Mir backend will be added to the version of Weston distributed by Ubuntu and the flavors will use a Wayland compositor running on top of Mir.

              There's also some talk in the thread about working to get Mir support integrated into upstream KDE, but all of us who actually follow this situation know that's not going to happen as long as Mir is distro-specific, and there's no evidence that it will ever be anything else. The people suggesting that also doesn't address the problem that Kubuntu is only one flavor, and the Mir problem affects all of the flavors.

              Also, there's this nice quote from Canonical employee Marc Deslauriers:
              Wayland will just work in Ubuntu.
              In any case, Kubuntu is quite unlikely to disappear or use a different distro as a base.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                Right now in Unity I have both the default orange and the blue from kde in use. It looks like a vomit but what can I do?
                I would start with changing your KDE and Qt themes.

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                • #23
                  *buntu-based distributions just have to use X or Wayland. That is no rule that they must use Mir.

                  The only advantage of basing on Ubuntu is to gain access to up-to-date packages like Mesa and X, both of which are still at least 1 entire version older even in Debian Sid and Debian Experimental, while still retaining support for apt -get.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                    I can't see why Mir specific patches aren't an option for KWin and Kubuntu.
                    Sure, the KWin project may be unreasonable in refusing to upstream Mir patches, but they could still make it run on that platform unofficially.

                    no, it is not 'unreasonable'. Those patches add a lot of overhead. Testing&maintenance burden. For what? Why? Because M.S. wants ubuntu to be as incompatible with everybody else as possible?

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                      I can't see why Mir specific patches aren't an option for KWin and Kubuntu.
                      Sure, the KWin project may be unreasonable in refusing to upstream Mir patches, but they could still make it run on that platform unofficially.
                      They are not unreasonable. When you accept a patch, you accept the responsability of maintaining the code including the patch, which would probably be a nightmare, not only because then every other distribution would have a case to say "hey, but you did accept this distro specific patches!", but because one of the main features Mir announces is to be PROTOCOL AGNOSTIC, and KWin and KDE DEPENDS on having a fixed protocol. You see where this goes? Since they need to know the protocol, which Mir abstracts, they're pretty much screwed even if they have the will to port it. Even if they make it work, since it's protocol agnostic (which is really, really useful to make Unity portable, but pretty much a pain in the ass for everyone that depends on a protocol) it's likely to break the API, then you'd need to make MORE distro specific patches. Not only this would displace resources from other things, but it's known that new code is very likely to introduce new bugs, so they'll probably be distorting for the worse the whole other users' experience with KDE. It's pretty much a reasonable response to not support it altogether. Specially when it's open source: you want KDE on Mir, then fork it regularly and maintain it in your own branch without screwing up all the Wayland and X.org users. That would be what you suggest later, but it's important to keep in mind that it's not just because of a whim, but there are actual valid reasons.

                      Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                      I would have hoped that since it was a FOSS project that the community response would have been better, but alas that is simply not enough these days.
                      On a side note I like Debian as a stable server platform, but it has given me too many gripes in the past with binary drivers and other non-FOSS software for me to consider installing it in a desktop role.
                      Wait, do you expect people to be happy with Mir just because it's FOSS when you're clearly not happy with FOSS drivers? Set your hopes first, then hope.
                      If it seems to break a lot of things on the community, the community will not be happy, be it FOSS or the worst closed source software that ever existed, with the exception they're used to closed software caring only about themselves. The same people is sometimes unhappy when FOSS drivers don't meet their requirements and they try to install the binary ones.
                      HOWEVER, since Mir actually doesn't exclude the possible use of the other environments, that part is a non-problem. The real problem will (likely, but not for sure) for the blob users, since Mir getting drivers will probably imply that Wayland doesn't get them, because it might not be deemed profitable for hardware manufacturers to do so. That and the fragmentation, which is arguable, with too many different point of view, are the real problems Mir introduce.
                      There's also the fact Mir started with the wrong foot spreading FUD without actually understanding what they were talking about. This not only makes a snowball of retaliation FUD, but makes them lose credibility with the community.

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                      • #26
                        I personnally use Kubuntu, and I really like it.

                        For me the ubuntu part of Kubuntu is to have KDE software with up to date packages like Ubuntu (and common start system, ...)

                        I don't switch to other distro because Ubuntu has a good documentation, is compatible with every programs I want to use (Steam, ...), has up to date packages (but not too unstable) and because after using it some years, I've learned many things and useful commands that I fear having to learn again if I change distro.

                        I've looked at the documentation of Mir and Wayland, and I think Wayland will add more value to my desktop than Mir.
                        But some others will think that Mir will be better for them (of course when both are ready, we'll compare the scenarios to see which is better in some using case).

                        Since Keep X - Choose Mir - Choose Wayland are non perfect solutions to please the Kubuntu users, why not split into KubuntuMir and KubuntuWayland? Since Mir is not ready and than Kde should soon work in wayland, KubuntuWayland would be ready before KubuntuMir, but once Mir is ready, KubuntuMir would come to life.

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                        • #27
                          I'd equate sticking by Canonical as being like an abused partner staying in an abusive relationship. They should cut their losses and run.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by mannerov View Post
                            I personnally use Kubuntu, and I really like it.
                            Me too . I've been using Kubuntu since 8.10 now and it's still my favorite distro. I began using Linux with OpenSUSE 11.0. I've also used Fedora some time after that. For me Kubuntu is stable. It just works. Besides that nearly all Linux software is available for Ubuntu. All PC's I installed Kubuntu on operate just fine. What extra bugs do you people notice when using Kubuntu in comparison with other kde distros? Even 12.10 worked just fine when not installing it day one (bug with prop. drivers, for the first time since I began using kubuntu. That bug was however "quickly" fixed). 13.04 was the first time I really had some problems with this distro (needed to upgrade kernel). That's all noticable Kubuntu/Ubuntu bugs after using Kubuntu for 4-5 years.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by mannerov View Post
                              Since Keep X - Choose Mir - Choose Wayland are non perfect solutions to please the Kubuntu users, why not split into KubuntuMir and KubuntuWayland? Since Mir is not ready and than Kde should soon work in wayland, KubuntuWayland would be ready before KubuntuMir, but once Mir is ready, KubuntuMir would come to life.
                              This has two major problems:

                              1. There is still nobody to maintain the MIR backend.
                              2. It divides resources between the two flavors.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                                Losses? Ubuntu has done more for converting windows users to linux than anything else.
                                really? why?

                                I remember Ubuntu's PR campaign. It wasn't even released when it was sold like the first debian based 'easy' distro ever.

                                Instead of being there a long ass line of other distris who did it first. Just without the same amount of advertisement.

                                Mandrake converted a lot of windows users (and they weren't even debian based).
                                Suse (not debian based either *gasp*)
                                SimpleMepis
                                Sidux
                                ...
                                ...
                                ...

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