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  • #46
    Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
    1) I never said to remove cli support. Just make sure that there is AT LEAST some kind of GUI fallback for people who like to have they're work done in a few clicks and to have it REMEMBERED AS DEFAULT- the emulator example is a very nice one... each had a - in the command line. if you wanted all of them you would go crazy writing for 40sec all the options to just RUN A FREAKING GAME.
    Who forces you to write them everytime? Write a script. If you need a GUI for an emulator... make it yourself. It's not that hard, and you can share it with all those newbies who need GUIs. Be a hero. Make a contribution.

    2) EDID problems are hardware. But on windows i can go in a panel, tell the panel that monitor have a resolution of 1280x1024 and that's it. When there is no edid it set it on a default safe res/freq and then it gives you all the options avaible to the graphic card, so you just select what you want. to do the same in linux i had to write long pointless cli command, make a script out of them and pray that next time i reboot the script works fine.
    Linux is not windows... lol same argument. Same attitude that locked linux on a niche for years, thank god there is someone who really wants to get any kind of linux out there where real people does not care if you use cli to set up that dmix(i work in the music field too, i don't even know what that means), but would be glad if they could have a simple mixer(xfce does not have that, it's either the keyboard fn or the full pulseaudio config) that can be set to output audio to the second graphic card for all streams.(xfce bug maybe, on unity it does that.)
    So you're saying, that in order to gain marketshare, Linux must become the same as windows? Lol, no thanks. I'd rather use a niche OS that gives me open source and freedom from NSA surveillance than a mainstream BigBrotherOS.

    And besides, you're wrong.

    Who told you that you won't have all your CLI happiness.I never said: KILL THE TERMINAL WITH FIRE.you linux users aren't the masses. You can't even make the 0,4% in terms of market share(i mean, users like you). You see, there is an elegant way to do things, there is a powerful one, there is an easy one. I just want the option for the easy one. Let the powerful one be there. just i don't want to have to do a tedious long list of command line things to burn a cd like i used to. And.. i think that typing on a tablet is very, very ergonomically fucked up.
    Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

    If you want GUIs for things, make them yourself. Share with others. Be useful. Not that difficult.

    yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scope for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)
    Computers are not bikes. When there are problems with a windows installation, the average punter is in trouble no matter if there's a GUI or not. They don't know what to do anyway. You can't solve every problem by adding big shiny buttons on it.

    It's not about the development of the wayland. i wasn't talking about wayland alone: think about gnome, systemd, xorg, toolkit provider. They were asked to change and have all a common release schedule to be able to deliver stable stuff in an ordered manner( how many times having a new version of xorg too late in the distro development have broken things ?) instead of the chaos right now(everyone releases as they see fit. not bad by itself, but not very reliable when you're a software house trying to aim at a moving target that can be at multiple places in time in multiple spaces)
    Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by dee. View Post
      Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.
      Well this does suggest that in order to match Linux and a big marketshare, good GUI/no CLI required somehow help.

      Comment


      • #48
        I propose good GUI and even better CLI - we have to think about Bash replacement, no matter how powerful it is (it certainly is!), its design sucks a lot. I tend to write scripts in Python because of simplicity and readability issues with Bash.
        Good GUI is a must, because computers aren't made for fixing them, configuring and setting up servers. When you want to do non-tech things, like editing documents, movies, audio files or pictures you need a good UI.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Because we don't have to assume that people are idiots. Wikipedia exists. Even idiots can copy-paste instructions from the internet to the command line or download premade scripts that they can put on their desktop as links. For fscks sake, it's not rocket science.

          This whole windows paradigm of making everything hold your hand at the cost of functionality is a shitty one. It doesn't do any favors to the user, it's better for the user to learn how to do things rather than just blindly click through text boxes that they don't understand. If average people can learn to use spreadsheets, they can learn to use the CLI. Heck, back in the early 90s almost everything was done in DOS, and regular, non-tech-savvy people had no problems running programs or doing their work or copying files.
          yeah because when you get a big stack trace in the console, it's obvious for everyone what to do....
          You think people have any idea of what to do when they encounter a problem? It's not like us devs that google for solutions and know how to find our ways around the internet....my dad still searches like "80's rock music LPs". My mom whenever firefox crashes and says stuff about restoring the previous session, she always calls me to "fix" it, and gets mad at me for telling her to read the fucking message, and even then she has NO CLUE of what that means.
          Your problem is thinking that everyone has 20 years of free time to learn linux, the internet ways, CLIs, and on top of that, REMEMBER EVERYTHING.....
          I know, C, python, VB, ASM but still it's a PITA to have to spend 1 or 2 hours writing a stupid script to fix something that could be already done like in windows. Like sireangelus said, way memorize all the syntax and commands to change the monitor resolution, when a frame, 1 combobox and 2 bottoms can fix it? When i said emulators i meant that if i want to play something, i dont want to be learning all the stupid commands to be able tune it so that it works for my configuration. (if you want sex, you are not in the mood to spend 3 hours trying to get the command right in the console) plus you have to change everything lots of times to troubleshoot some bugs and doing that in the console is commuting sepuku. Like trying to debug a binary without a debugger. Intead of CLI plus gui util, it should be GUI + no-gui option like pcsx has.
          And not, it not like "you dont like this then go away", YOU go away by your oun means because this is caused by your attitude. Windows is not bad, it's just oversimplified and closed source. I dont like windows because it's inflexible but also dont like this linux bs about everything-should-be-cli.

          Originally posted by dee. View Post
          Bullshit, Mednafen works great for everything up to SNES, Mupen64plus works great for N64, and Dolphin works great for GameCube games. Mednafen especially is brilliant, it works better than the best SNES emulator on windows (ZSNES) and has all the same features plus some more.

          It's really not that difficult to type "emulator-name rom-name" on the terminal. Or hell, write a quick shell script with zenity if you absolutely need to poke things with a mouse and are allergic to the keyboard...

          What's a folder, some kind of windows thing? The directory structure of Linux follows the POSIX standard and it is good. Nothing wrong with it. On the contrary, it is windows that has stupid directory structures. It might look fancy to name directories "Program Files" and such, but when you're on the terminal, you don't want to type out "cd Program\ Files", it's much easier to type "cd usr". I haven't seen a version conflict... well, ever. The distro packagers make sure that those don't happen.

          Package management works great on Linux, it's still lightyears ahead of any proprietary OS.
          Didnt now about mednafen, in all these years it never ever appeared in google, so i guess it's not well known.
          yeah forgot abut muppen64 and dolphin, they are both really good quality pieces of software.

          #emulator rom.rom
          *window appears*
          *crackling sound*
          *20fps with a nes/megadrive rom on a 6core @ 3,5GHz*
          *no controller defined at all*
          (and on top of that it doesnt even support you nice wireless gamepad you bought specifically to play these roms without the cumbersome keyboard....)
          This is what i was talking about.

          well just tested mednafen and it at least works, (althouhg megadrive roms dont work) but still not gonna bother setting EACH key via console command.....nor spend 3 hours reading all the documentation. And dont even think i'll spend 3 more hours or more writing a script to change the configuration for EACH emulator it supports. It does have a minimal menu in-game but far from what zsnes has. And even if i did write the gui and stuff which would take a lot of time, then i'd have to upload it somewhere like source forge, and then maintain it. Just hoping some distro will see my effort and make the appropriate packages so that others can use it too.
          dude, what's so bad about a gui to speed things up? If you do something, do it right, not just half and let other take care of the rest.
          VLC did it right, their config windows is fantastic, has basic and advanced mode, and every setting is in a combobox or a numberbox
          If you are the author, makig a gui util takes you a fraction of what one would have to spend learning how to do it via console, multiply that by every people that will have to spend that time.....so you end with 4 hours of the authors time vs 1 or 2 days of every user out there.


          Originally posted by dee.
          Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.
          yeah except most big ones aim at the server market, not the end user one. It's RedHat Enterprise......not RedHat Home Premium. Oracle, novell, the same. Very few do stuff for the end user unless unless they need it for their corporative distro. They might fund some software but those they fund still do it wrong, see gnome3, it had to be forked into mate because gnome3 was all you said you dont like about windows. Why not fund something usefull? Or is it ok when something standard does oversimplified stuff for normal users?
          Instead of funding all that that we already have, they should pay devs to do the stuff that's missing.

          Video: not sure about those movie maker like ones but avidemux is not even a hundredth of what virtualdub is. Same with our codec libraries, in windows you make your codec, register it and programs automatically have support for your new codec, because they have their own configuration utility. In linux you have to make the config util yourself and then recompile everything to support it.....Same goes for demuxers
          Let's not talk about ffmpeg......
          Audio: Audacity is ok but still missing lots of stuff the big ones have. Has the same codec problems
          Image: Everyone in the professional field uses GIMP, i forgot......Not even close to photoshop and the development is turtle slow. Still waiting for multithread rendering/processing....Same goes for inkscape.

          Where are those professional looking programs you talk about?

          Originally posted by Siekacz.
          I propose good GUI and even better CLI - we have to think about Bash replacement, no matter how powerful it is (it certainly is!), its design sucks a lot. I tend to write scripts in Python because of simplicity and readability issues with Bash.
          Good GUI is a must, because computers aren't made for fixing them, configuring and setting up servers. When you want to do non-tech things, like editing documents, movies, audio files or pictures you need a good UI.
          ditto.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by dee. View Post
            Who forces you to write them everytime? Write a script. If you need a GUI for an emulator... make it yourself. It's not that hard, and you can share it with all those newbies who need GUIs. Be a hero. Make a contribution.



            So you're saying, that in order to gain marketshare, Linux must become the same as windows? Lol, no thanks. I'd rather use a niche OS that gives me open source and freedom from NSA surveillance than a mainstream BigBrotherOS.

            And besides, you're wrong.



            Have you seen a tablet where you have to use the CLI? Most tablets out there run a Linux-based OS.

            If you want GUIs for things, make them yourself. Share with others. Be useful. Not that difficult.



            Computers are not bikes. When there are problems with a windows installation, the average punter is in trouble no matter if there's a GUI or not. They don't know what to do anyway. You can't solve every problem by adding big shiny buttons on it.



            Yeah and why should every project have to do their things the way Canonical wants? They were here long before Canonical, they do things with other distros in mind, not just Canonical. The world doesn't revolve around Ubuntu. Ask yourself, why does every other company, every other distro and project manage to co-operate with these projects and toolkits, but Canonical is the only one that has problems? If you find yourself fighting the world, it doesn't matter how correct you think you are. You simply need to play by the rules of the sandbox or pick up your toys and go home.


            1)nobody forces me. but the typical tablet user necessary for having linux pass critical mass does not know what that is. Neither he will want to. It will play with it for a few hours, find it too difficult, then he will go and buy an ipad.

            2)Yeah right. because, being easy as windows it's BAD right? Oh god no, please no, like that if it's too easy project managers would start out of the blue to close their sources and if it becomes easy and widespread, how am i gonna be the guy who lives in the basement and he's different because he uses linux? It seems to me that you consider yourself an elite just because you know your way around a cli and can do stuff that other people can't.If we start putting in GUI options, everybody would be able to do what you do on a cli and even make jokes about how stupid that can be for simple operations, so god save linux from the misery of popularity!

            3)There is no GNU/Linux tablet out there( would you consider ubuntu touch or the vivaldi? it's not out there, nobody is selling them) There are android/linux tablets, bsd/Ios tablets, NT/ModernUI tablets, but no GNU/linux tablets. Please show me which one of these needs cli to force their settings. At worst, android have GUI apps that translate busybox settings and applies them each time at boot( some even create init.d scripts to do that.) Tha'ts what i'd like to see in GNU/Linux. That's really all i'm asking.
            They're selling in the millions. Kde 4 vivaldi will not sell a hundred thousand.(Mostly, the ecosystem nobody will be interested in it. I would buy a windows 8 bay-trail tablet without a second thought and have android side-loaded)

            4)You can make it easier to solve if you need to show them the solution. Even if you think that copy paste into a cli would be faster, a lot of user would find themselves uncomfortable with that.And visual passages are easy to remember than obscure lines that are used in a zombie like fashion. If you show someone guiding him using the GUI, the next time he has that problem will remember how to solve it.

            5)I don't think that would be a bad idea. Have a common release point for all of the major packages would help the ecosystem as a whole, because it would give enough warning and time to prepare for software houses to be ready for the changes, especially when there is api/abi breakage and that was the whole point of canonical( and that, happens a lot on linux. X.Org abi that changes for each release anyone? The versioning mess that the wa.yland developers talked about in another topic?).

            Do you ever EVER see api breakage on windows or macosx or android? Sometimes poorly written apps or that uses things that are undocumented might be broken or not funcion properly but most of them usually works across OS versions(please do not use the 9x/NT passage as an example). And no, recompiling it and having to distrubuite different api/abi versions is something that software houses WONT DO. They want to build once, run as long as possible with as little changes as possible on at least the OS they are working on. Yet again, in your whole post you miss the target audience and business and the scope of canonical work.

            If you're perfectly happy with your LFS distro you can keep going that way. As I said, until a few years ago i was very, very happy with gentoo.Then the age of reason has come over and between work and other real life stuff i realized that i didn't had the time to go and try to understand how to solve all the complicated stuff and waste all that time( in some cases is not, but for most people is) just to install a SO.I want something that's ready to use and would not give me problems, and it would not be complicated to use or to solve problems when they arise.
            Last edited by sireangelus; 06-12-2013, 09:39 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
              *Huge pointless rant*
              I vote for fallback GUIs, easily. But everything else in your post is a huge proprietary stinkhole, like windowze, so big fat NO from me.
              And yes, pretty much every application should be opensource and available in checked, protected repository; the windowze approach is utter crap.

              Also, funny how you try to use gentoo - an OS with maximum customization; thus maximum questions to be filled out by its owner; and then suddenly you want real life stuff - like what? Getting out of your basement for a walk? Sure you can solve this without migration from gentoo. If you don't need that amount of customization use something full-binary like... Android or OpenSuSe.

              So, basically, rework your image to contributor instead of complainer; or go complain in next-next-sandbox

              GNU/Linux is not successful on tablets, because there was Nokia and MS killed it (as usual, instead of doing something positive, they destroy or block others); but they missed Google, that forked Linux and did some housework on optimization = Android.

              Or do you want Linux+Xorg on tablets with 26 years of back-compatibility? There was OpenMoko and there are some projects like Pandora that give exactly this - google, buy, rant off.
              Last edited by brosis; 06-12-2013, 10:05 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by ashkbajw View Post
                Video: not sure about those movie maker like ones but avidemux is not even a hundredth of what virtualdub is.
                Avidemux is 5 times better than virtualdub mod and 20 times better than virtual dub; and then, it(avidemux) still manages to suck at AVC/264 which they completely reworked in new 2.6 version, which only recently is more-less stable, which in turn is understandable, because there is *NO* even close equivalent on per-frame AVC cutter/merger like avidemux.

                Originally posted by ashkbajw View Post
                Same with our codec libraries, in windows you make your codec, register it and programs automatically have support for your new codec, because they have their own configuration utility. In linux you have to make the config util yourself and then recompile everything to support it.....Same goes for demuxers
                Oh.. uhh.. in windows you have - nothing!
                The thing that you mean is DirectShow - is full equivalent of Gstreamer, with exception of being closed source proprietary windows-only piece of stinkhole.

                So, in terms of plugin codec - Gstreamer is easily the first real-deal here. But AGAIN, in reality plugin codecs does not really work well, because they need finetuning and applications end up using something all-in-one like mplayer2 or VLC; or just shipping with specific, tested, patched codecs.

                Originally posted by ashkbajw View Post
                Windows is not bad, it's just oversimplified and closed source. I dont like windows because it's inflexible but also dont like this linux bs about everything-should-be-cli.
                LOL, so GTFO to your "oversimplified" windows! Or just STFU and use linux-only for 4-5 years then go back and talk. Like dee said - don't like CLI, write a freaking GUI for it. CLI is simple interface with maximum function, so that developer can concentrate on functionality, IF developer thinks that he does not have enough time for usability features!
                Last edited by brosis; 06-12-2013, 10:21 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
                  1)nobody forces me. but the typical tablet user necessary for having linux pass critical mass does not know what that is. Neither he will want to. It will play with it for a few hours, find it too difficult, then he will go and buy an ipad.
                  No one buys an ipad. Android is winning the tablet market. The only ones buying ipads and iphones are hipsters with too much money to spend and government facilities/schools that have been hustled/bribed by lobbyists with Apple connections.

                  And no one is asking typical tablet users to write scripts. That was the entire point. Be a hero, make a contribution. Help out those "stupid tablet users". But noooo, you'd rather bitch about it on some internet forum, big guy.

                  2)Yeah right. because, being easy as windows it's BAD right? Oh god no, please no, like that if it's too easy project managers would start out of the blue to close their sources and if it becomes easy and widespread, how am i gonna be the guy who lives in the basement and he's different because he uses linux? It seems to me that you consider yourself an elite just because you know your way around a cli and can do stuff that other people can't.If we start putting in GUI options, everybody would be able to do what you do on a cli and even make jokes about how stupid that can be for simple operations, so god save linux from the misery of popularity!
                  Ah, strawman arguments, the one true sign of a true idiot.

                  I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. If you can't figure out why your comment is idiotic, go to wikipedia and search "strawman argument". If you still can't figure out, then you're beyond help.

                  3)There is no GNU/Linux tablet out there( would you consider ubuntu touch or the vivaldi? it's not out there, nobody is selling them) There are android/linux tablets, bsd/Ios tablets, NT/ModernUI tablets, but no GNU/linux tablets. Please show me which one of these needs cli to force their settings. At worst, android have GUI apps that translate busybox settings and applies them each time at boot( some even create init.d scripts to do that.) Tha'ts what i'd like to see in GNU/Linux. That's really all i'm asking.
                  So go do it yourself. You're asking people to do stuff for you and fulfill your wishes without any compensation. Why would they? You have a problem, you fix it. Or start a crowdsourcing project to hire some developers to work on the problems that you see.

                  Also, just so you know, there are GNU/Linux tablets. There are already tablets that dual-boot android and GNU/Linux. In the future there will be even more. Tizen is GNU/Linux, it will have tablets, and Sailfish will "maybe" run on tablets (no reason why it couldn't, just depends on Jolla, if they want to release one).


                  They're selling in the millions. Kde 4 vivaldi will not sell a hundred thousand.(Mostly, the ecosystem nobody will be interested in it. I would buy a windows 8 bay-trail tablet without a second thought and have android side-loaded)
                  Anyone who would still pay even one cent to microsoft is a world-class idiot (or just ignorant). You really want to financially support a company that is by this point nothing but basically a front for NSA spying operations?

                  4)You can make it easier to solve if you need to show them the solution. Even if you think that copy paste into a cli would be faster, a lot of user would find themselves uncomfortable with that.And visual passages are easy to remember than obscure lines that are used in a zombie like fashion. If you show someone guiding him using the GUI, the next time he has that problem will remember how to solve it.
                  Bullshit. It's easier to paste some lines to a terminal than go through an endless mess of menus and windows and tabs searching for the right button, like you have to do on windows - assuming you can even fix your problem on windows. Good luck dealing with a messed up registry, other than re-installing the entire system.

                  For that matter, this whole CLI-hate is just idiotic. A regular user doesn't need to use the CLI at all on modern Linux distros.

                  5)I don't think that would be a bad idea. Have a common release point for all of the major packages would help the ecosystem as a whole, because it would give enough warning and time to prepare for software houses to be ready for the changes, especially when there is api/abi breakage and that was the whole point of canonical( and that, happens a lot on linux. X.Org abi that changes for each release anyone? The versioning mess that the wa.yland developers talked about in another topic?).
                  Wayland promises a stable API. Canonical doesn't, they've said that they intend to break the API of Mir intentionally if it suits their purposes.

                  Do you ever EVER see api breakage on windows or macosx or android? Sometimes poorly written apps or that uses things that are undocumented might be broken or not funcion properly but most of them usually works across OS versions(please do not use the 9x/NT passage as an example). And no, recompiling it and having to distrubuite different api/abi versions is something that software houses WONT DO. They want to build once, run as long as possible with as little changes as possible on at least the OS they are working on. Yet again, in your whole post you miss the target audience and business and the scope of canonical work.
                  Plenty of API breakage on windows. They just use compatibility layers (which don't work flawlessly) to provide backwards compatibility.

                  If you're perfectly happy with your LFS distro you can keep going that way. As I said, until a few years ago i was very, very happy with gentoo.Then the age of reason has come over and between work and other real life stuff i realized that i didn't had the time to go and try to understand how to solve all the complicated stuff and waste all that time( in some cases is not, but for most people is) just to install a SO.I want something that's ready to use and would not give me problems, and it would not be complicated to use or to solve problems when they arise.
                  If you're willing to sacrifice freedom for comfort, you deserve neither.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by ashkbajw View Post
                    well just tested mednafen and it at least works, (althouhg megadrive roms dont work) but still not gonna bother setting EACH key via console command.....nor spend 3 hours reading all the documentation. And dont even think i'll spend 3 more hours or more writing a script to change the configuration for EACH emulator it supports. It does have a minimal menu in-game but far from what zsnes has. And even if i did write the gui and stuff which would take a lot of time, then i'd have to upload it somewhere like source forge, and then maintain it. Just hoping some distro will see my effort and make the appropriate packages so that others can use it too.
                    dude, what's so bad about a gui to speed things up? If you do something, do it right, not just half and let other take care of the rest.
                    VLC did it right, their config windows is fantastic, has basic and advanced mode, and every setting is in a combobox or a numberbox
                    If you are the author, makig a gui util takes you a fraction of what one would have to spend learning how to do it via console, multiply that by every people that will have to spend that time.....so you end with 4 hours of the authors time vs 1 or 2 days of every user out there.
                    You don't have to define anything on the command line. Mednafen has config files where you can easily edit your settings for every console. RTFM.

                    Also, you can configure your gamepad in the emulator, and it'll remember your settings for it. No need for commandline for that either.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by brosis View Post
                      I vote for fallback GUIs, easily. But everything else in your post is a huge proprietary stinkhole, like windowze, so big fat NO from me.
                      And yes, pretty much every application should be opensource and available in checked, protected repository; the windowze approach is utter crap.

                      Also, funny how you try to use gentoo - an OS with maximum customization; thus maximum questions to be filled out by its owner; and then suddenly you want real life stuff - like what? Getting out of your basement for a walk? Sure you can solve this without migration from gentoo. If you don't need that amount of customization use something full-binary like... Android or OpenSuSe.

                      So, basically, rework your image to contributor instead of complainer; or go complain in next-next-sandbox

                      GNU/Linux is not successful on tablets, because there was Nokia and MS killed it (as usual, instead of doing something positive, they destroy or block others); but they missed Google, that forked Linux and did some housework on optimization = Android.

                      Or do you want Linux+Xorg on tablets with 26 years of back-compatibility? There was OpenMoko and there are some projects like Pandora that give exactly this - google, buy, rant off.
                      1):"And yes, pretty much every application should be opensource and available in checked, protected repository; the windowze approach is utter crap." This is Stallman utopia. Unfortunately we live in the real world and so for at least the next 10 years, the most important professional software outside the server paradigm is gonna be Proprietary and so out-of-package manager.

                      2) Yeah, in fact i've migrated to Xubuntu. Gentoo took too much time in config alone, not to mention compiling. Provide me automatic config backends to install it(which to me means, having a fluxbox xorg with a gui, that have you select some basic options and have advanced options too and makes the whole process automatic) and i might go back to gentoo. Still, it's a pain to install out-of-package-source-only stuff even more than is to install proprietary stuff, while ubuntu at least has the PPA system that provides ease of use. In my case, i'm talking about 2 things i can't live withouth on linux on this laptop: TLP and Bumblebee.


                      GNU/Linux is not successful on tablets, because there was Nokia and MS killed it (as usual, instead of doing something positive, they destroy or block others); but they missed Google, that forked Linux and did some housework on optimization = Android
                      Android is definitely not linux, the apps ecosystem can run on almost anything( blackberry anyone?The Blue windows app?). Maemo might have been the turning point for gnu/linux and ms has killed it, but even that wouldn't had to use cli. They had only 1 toolkit, and it was a standardized environment where you would have been 100% sure that an application written for N900 would work, as in android, and a system update would be retro-compatible, like wp8, like ios. We all saw the fallout of the chrome on ubuntu 13.04 with broken deps didn't we?

                      Originally posted by dee. View Post
                      Hey there baby duck, miss your mommy?



                      Uh... hey... install drivers, what? Linux comes with all the drivers you need. The only driver you would ever need to install is the (proprietary) GPU driver and guess what, even that can be done in the package manager. If you need drivers from some specialized hardware, odds are you won't care if it has a GUI installer because if you use specialized hardware you are not an average user and you'll know what you're doing (or hire someone to do it for you).

                      Also, we already have distro-independent ways to install programs. If you go buy games from Humble Bundle for example, a lot of them come as install scripts, which you run once, and they ask you where you want to install the game, and then you're done. You're making up imaginary problems.

                      And yes, most software comes in through package manager. That's fine and great, because Linux distros also allow you to install software by other means if you want to. The windows way of doing things isn't the only way, and by far isn't the best.
                      Ehy, the new shiny Logitech g4000 is out!! let's connect it to our new geek linux 5.0.. OOOOPS! we don't have a kernel version updated enough and it doesn't have the drivers for it! we shall wait until geek linux 6.0 is out to have all the functionality. Same things with gpus(even more so, the intel actual situation-no prop gpu drivers. Look how long they start including support in the kernel to be sure that when the gpu is out all recent linux distro would be able to support it.)
                      This is just an example. And having a CLI script is not good enough for me... well, at least for the mass.
                      What i'm saying is OPTIONS. FREAKING OPTIONS(that's the point of linux isn't it? but, like the gnome3 people, it seems to me that the trend is going in the opposite direction). I keep saying, you want your old way? Nobody should take that away from you. But please, let the mortals have a simple way so that they will be able to conduct normal lifes.
                      Last edited by sireangelus; 06-12-2013, 10:29 AM.

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
                        1):"And yes, pretty much every application should be opensource and available in checked, protected repository; the windowze approach is utter crap." This is Stallman utopia. Unfortunately we live in the real world and so for at least the next 10 years, the most important professional software outside the server paradigm is gonna be Proprietary and so out-of-package manager.

                        2) Yeah, in fact i've migrated to Xubuntu. Gentoo took too much time in config alone, not to mention compiling. Provide me automatic config backends to install it(which to me means, having a fluxbox xorg with a gui, that have you select some basic options and have advanced options too and makes the whole process automatic) and i might go back to gentoo. Still, it's a pain to install out-of-package-source-only stuff even more than is to install proprietary stuff, while ubuntu at least has the PPA system that provides ease of use. In my case, i'm talking about 2 things i can't live withouth on linux on this laptop: TLP and Bumblebee.

                        Android is definitely not linux, the apps ecosystem can run on almost anything( blackberry anyone?). Maemo might have been the turning point for gnu/linux and ms has killed it, but even that wouldn't had to use cli. They had only 1 toolkit, and it was a standardized environment where you would have been 100% sure that an application written for N900 would work, as in android, and a system update would be retro-compatible, like wp8, like ios. We all saw the fallout of the chrome on ubuntu 13.04 with broken deps didn't we?
                        1) This is not *utopia*, I use it, support it, and it works out without your bullshit. Yes, professional software.
                        Sure, development costs money, this is why I contribute.

                        2) Gentoo requires 12 hours to re-compile the whole desktop on 4 year old quadcore. Its very funny how you pick a do-it-yourself distribution and then complain that its a do-it-yourself distribution. *buntu has near zero sane automation, its nearly same old Debian that requires user to have no CLI-phobia; if you need full point-to-point automation you are best served with opensuse. If you are okay with CLI due to customization, but want to skip compiling, you can try *arch or calculate.

                        3) Android IS Linux. Userspace runs in Davik JVM and all applications can run on GNU/Linux system, because the latter is superset.
                        I also don't use Chrome and by far not any *buntu - because the first is even today unstable and the latter like to ship borked stuff, then write whole wikis full of text-workarounds.
                        Nothing also prevents you to use only applications that use only one toolkit! Also, when you start talking about "standardized environment" you can pretty much package things and leave the discussion, because the only environment that will match is a nintendo console! Buy, plugin, play, repeat. Four buttons and joystick - that much amount of customization, all standardized.

                        Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
                        Ehy, the new shiny Logitech g4000 is out!! let's connect it to our new geek linux 5.0.. OOOOPS! we don't have a kernel version updated enough and it doesn't have the drivers for it! we shall wait until geek linux 6.0 is out to have all the functionality. Same things with gpus(even more so, the intel actual situation-no prop gpu drivers. Look how long they start including support in the kernel to be sure that when the gpu is out all recent linux distro would be able to support it.)
                        This is just an example. And having a CLI script is not good enough for me... well, at least for the mass.
                        What i'm saying is OPTIONS. FREAKING OPTIONS(that's the point of linux isn't it? but, like the gnome3 people, it seems to me that the trend is going in the opposite direction). I keep saying, you want your old way? Nobody should take that away from you. But please, let the mortals have a simple way so that they will be able to conduct normal lifes.
                        Ehy, you own fault for buying shitty hardware! Should have bought Roccat instead.

                        But I love your general direction of trashtalking Linux, which is why when somebody with windows has a problem and approaches me, I tell him to GTFO because his OS is not supported. Its that easy!

                        The rest of post you prepeat yourself - you can C, Python, ASM? Shut up and code!
                        Last edited by brosis; 06-12-2013, 10:48 AM.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by dee. View Post
                          No one buys an ipad. Android is winning the tablet market. The only ones buying ipads and iphones are hipsters with too much money to spend and government facilities/schools that have been hustled/bribed by lobbyists with Apple connections.

                          And no one is asking typical tablet users to write scripts. That was the entire point. Be a hero, make a contribution. Help out those "stupid tablet users". But noooo, you'd rather bitch about it on some internet forum, big guy.
                          I'm the one who's using the software. Even if i don't pay for it, i'm still entitled to point out what is wrong with it, even if i don't know how to write code(not true, but not enough either to something as i proposed).
                          This is exactly the GNOME3 philosophy. And as such, i've just wanted to use the leading tablet format out there. The one that has one at least at first, because the android alternative was inoperable. Also, the software ecosystem for ipads is 10 times better that the android equivalent, while that's not true in the phone equivalent. I still can't find alternatives to Amplitube for IOS or similar programs(they even provide the logic board with inputs and outputs.)


                          Ah, strawman arguments, the one true sign of a true idiot.

                          I'm not even going to dignify that with a response. If you can't figure out why your comment is idiotic, go to wikipedia and search "strawman argument". If you still can't figure out, then you're beyond help.
                          i'm still wating for an argoumentative answer to this: "yeah right... GUIs makes no sense at all. Why having them??? it was so nice back then. I tell you something that nobody ever told you and you sure as hell never noticed: PEOPLE-ARE-LAZY. They don't want to learn a complicated way to do stuff. They want to actually do stuff, and do it in the fastest way possible. It happens that is the gui and using the mouse instead of typing for longs periods of time.It means that i don't have to maybe find a way to do things through an obscure set of things in a strange language that sounds like alien, they want to have a nice panel that sets up the options with them cleary explained so that they can do on their own easily. It happens also that i want to learn how to do things in the smallest time possible. If a bike had 8 different brakes and 70 gears,that might have a scop for a pro biker, a normal person that just wants to do a mile and have a nice ride looking around won't care to learn them ,they would want the normal 2 brake-1 gear version, and they will trash the 8 brakes bike without a second though. In fact it seems to me that the most used(and sold) bikes have no shift gear at all. Have you ever asked yourself why?(it's an interesting parallel too.)"
                          You only commented on the bike example and ignored the whole target user part, which is where i come from with your "strawman argoument"




                          So go do it yourself. You're asking people to do stuff for you and fulfill your wishes without any compensation. Why would they? You have a problem, you fix it. Or start a crowdsourcing project to hire some developers to work on the problems that you see.

                          Also, just so you know, there are GNU/Linux tablets. There are already tablets that dual-boot android and GNU/Linux. In the future there will be even more. Tizen is GNU/Linux, it will have tablets, and Sailfish will "maybe" run on tablets (no reason why it couldn't, just depends on Jolla, if they want to release one).
                          All the system you mentioned are linux/androidDriver/Surfacelinger/(INSERT SPECIFIC UI AND PACKAGE MANAGER HERE) QT/QML systems. And it seems to me that's exactly what canonical is doing, but instead of surfacelinger they use Mir.


                          Anyone who would still pay even one cent to microsoft is a world-class idiot (or just ignorant). You really want to financially support a company that is by this point nothing but basically a front for NSA spying operations?
                          as i always said, there are so many hackers trying to dissect windows for they're own good, that if there was strange traffic streaming from some sort of spying system we would have long known about it.It doesn't mean i trust microsoft. It means that i'm willing to consider that there si no other alternative to have a tablet that can run pretty much all OSes(the irony! )if you don't buy a UEFI tablet.FYI, Secureboot Must Be Possible To Be Disabled if an OEM wants windows 8 certification on a non-arm system.

                          Bullshit. It's easier to paste some lines to a terminal than go through an endless mess of menus and windows and tabs searching for the right button, like you have to do on windows - assuming you can even fix your problem on windows. Good luck dealing with a messed up registry, other than re-installing the entire system.

                          For that matter, this whole CLI-hate is just idiotic. A regular user doesn't need to use the CLI at all on modern Linux distros.
                          i beg to differ. The difference here is the ease of memorization. With menus, you have hints. You know that you will have to look under settings, display, then if you forgotten the next step there is an high chance that seeing the various options will have you rember what is it that you need. The average user won't , because they DONT WANT TO because of the aforementioned laziness remember a long list of meaningless scribble.And also cause of the aforementioned laziness they will have to go again to google each time the same problem will present himself.Even more badly, if the problem presents itself after each boot because the long CLI command won't be remembered the next boot. Remember me to hate the CLI next time the NVIDIA driver asks me to close X.Org because it can't install otherwise... Someone who comes from windows will have the subsequent problems:
                          Have no idea what X.Org is. Have no idea what to do. Close the CLI. Go back to the windows partition.(and... most Distros do not offer the option anymore to login to VT and close Xorg.)


                          Wayland promises a stable API. Canonical doesn't, they've said that they intend to break the API of Mir intentionally if it suits their purposes.



                          Plenty of API breakage on windows. They just use compatibility layers (which don't work flawlessly) to provide backwards compatibility.



                          If you're willing to sacrifice freedom for comfort, you deserve neither.
                          Mir will break api towards unity. Of course it's not a problem for them: they can develop both at the same time The unity API once set won't change for quite a while, since it will follow the QML/QT APIs. Like Android UI can break surface linger abi(2.3>4.0) and have the drivers rewritten. In these cases it does not matter, because all of this happens behind the end-user and it's made in a way that a user would never notice.

                          At least they keep the compatibility even between different rendering methods(GDI>DWM-Direct2D)

                          I don't want to rob you of your freedom of using the CLI. But you're actively trying to rob me of my freedom of having things that are easy to set up. So who's against freedom now?
                          Last edited by sireangelus; 06-12-2013, 11:14 AM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by brosis View Post
                            1) This is not *utopia*, I use it, support it, and it works out without your bullshit. Yes, professional software.
                            Sure, development costs money, this is why I contribute.
                            that's 1 software out of the 400k out there that are proprietary and will not support linux cause of this philosophy.

                            2) Gentoo requires 12 hours to re-compile the whole desktop on 4 year old quadcore. Its very funny how you pick a do-it-yourself distribution and then complain that its a do-it-yourself distribution. *buntu has near zero sane automation, its nearly same old Debian that requires user to have no CLI-phobia; if you need full point-to-point automation you are best served with opensuse. If you are okay with CLI due to customization, but want to skip compiling, you can try *arch or calculate.
                            Opensuse still hase the bullshit of asking root for wifi. And last time i tried i could not update nor donwload anything from it's repository, no matter how much i searched on google.

                            3) Android IS Linux. Userspace runs in Dalvik JVM and all applications can run on GNU/Linux system, because the latter is superset.
                            I also don't use Chrome and by far not any *buntu - because the first is even today unstable and the latter like to ship borked stuff, then write whole wikis full of text-workarounds.h
                            Free to use what you want. I'm not forcing you to do anything. but PLEASE, do not talk about things you do not know. If it was that easy to run full linux apps in android(even if you would want to do that) we shouldn't be using chroot envs on microsd to do that.( and i know what i'm talking about, i've been a bit of an android rom developer) And android is ALL about userspace. It could use the QNX or the NT kernel or the Mach or HURD and provided a little bit of support it would run all the same(as it does on QNX)
                            Please read my post and the fact that i made a clear distinction in terms of what is GNU/Linux and what isn't.

                            Nothing also prevents you to use only applications that use only one toolkit! Also, when you start talking about "standardized environment" you can pretty much package things and leave the discussion, because the only environment that will match is a nintendo console! Buy, plugin, play, repeat. Four buttons and joystick - that much amount of customization, all standardized.
                            Yeah. beacuse, if i write a QT app and someone has a gtk-only distro, i have many choices, most of them very expensive in terms of time and effort.. statically compile them, have a single-package-mini-chroot system, or having to painfull try the software on all the distros so that i can determine what packages i need, be sure that they are in the package manager, and write the relative package manager installation; Also be sure that all the paths used are the same on all distros.Guess what is the preferred and why by the software houses?

                            Ehy, you own fault for buying shitty hardware! Should have bought Roccat instead.

                            But I love your general direction of trashtalking Linux, which is why when somebody with windows has a problem and approaches me, I tell him to GTFO because his OS is not supported. Its that easy!

                            The rest of post you prepeat yourself - you can C, Python, ASM? Shut up and code!
                            First, if i'm trashtalking is because i'd like a change, probably because i CARE.
                            Your os is not supported trash is the treatment that 99% of software and hardware developers reserve to linux. I can see the mentality trascends the OS you write for.

                            Second, i don't care. I want to buy a new shiny keyboard and plug it in.I even don't want to care about drivers, but if i really have to i will install them. More likely, i will call a friend of mine that knows this kind of stuff like as why it does not work and he will take care of it, only to be told that the operating system does not support the hardware. After that cryptic answer that i know absolutely nothing of what is he talking about, i would kindly ask the friend to give me a solution, that solution typically would involve installing windows so that i can make use of what i just bought.
                            Or even worst, imagine someone buying a linux laptop that buys the macos/windows only Photoshop because he's got a studio and wants to install it once the market share starts breaking over the 2% threshold that somehow it has never passed.

                            This is all in the lazy-argument and the TARGET AUDIENCE problem that "your kind" of users can't even see and won't bother with it.
                            Last edited by sireangelus; 06-12-2013, 11:23 AM.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by brosis View Post
                              Android IS Linux. Userspace runs in Dalvik JVM and all applications can run on GNU/Linux system, because the latter is superset.
                              android is not gnu/linux. the linux part of that is true, but there is no gnu code in the userland. they use bionic instead of glibc. toolbox (their minimal busybox clone) is apache 2.0 licenced. when implementing encryption they wrote their own implementation around dm-crypt instead of using cryptsetup, which does exactly what they needed, due to its gnu license. everything the user sees is running on dalvik.

                              running a gnu/linux app requires using a completely separate userland in a chroot. and running X apps involves using vnc, effectively making your chroot a separate os that could be running anywhere.
                              Last edited by tvall; 06-12-2013, 11:29 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                with the whole basement argument i was taking an extreme and i was not attacking you directly.I simply wanted to prove a point of what the feelings of people who actually use the software but do not care about what your position is sees "you" as.
                                Last edited by sireangelus; 06-12-2013, 11:32 AM.

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