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  • #16
    Originally posted by Siekacz View Post
    I strongly recommend buying a pair of glasses. Control, cleaner codebase, tests - EOT (End Of Trolling).
    I'm sorry, do you have two user accounts? Isn't that against the rules or something?

    Anyway - control: poor argument, there's no need to be in control of every piece of software in a good Linux distro - in fact, it can be a disadvantage. Canonical isn't in control of the Linux kernel either, yet it works just fine for them and every other Linux distro. Canonical is simply unable to collaborate with others, and in this they lose a very valuable resource, the manpower and knowledge and skill of a lot of developers. Besides, the whole point of "control" is moot, because Wayland is an open standard - Canonical would be free to jump in to the development of the standard and propose any extension they need, and a stable, common API across all Linux OS's would be beneficial to all, and they could still implement their own Wayland compositor and have 100% control of it.

    Cleaner codebase - there's no evidence of this being the case. Wayland devs are professional coders, with years of experience of the graphics stack, years of experience patching up and maintaining X so they know what works and what doesn't, and what is the best way to do things. Canonical has none of this, all they can aspire to do is stay behind Wayland and mimic them.

    Tests - Martin Grlin already made really good arguments as to why test-driven development isn't necessarily the best way to write code. There's plenty of projects that produce excellent code without being test-driven.

    What Canonical is doing is harmful to the entire Linux platform. Without Mir, we'd have a common API for almost the entire Linux platform (excluding Android). Canonical was on board with the Wayland plan until a few months ago, and now they seem to be hiring Microsoft "ex-workers" (read: moles) left and right and kissing up Microsoft's ass. Makes you wonder...

    Comment


    • #17
      lol

      Originally posted by dee. View Post
      Well, I've never used Hurd, although I think it's an interesting project. I don't think you've seen me in any other forums, either. Mir is stupid, it is a waste of time, and I don't see you having any coherent arguments to convince anyone otherwise, LOL ;D
      you are more stupid that i think?

      if mir was a sucess i want see your opinion then.

      hurd is an interesting project? a dead project.

      and yes i already see you in another foruns.

      im not trying to bring favor arguments to mir, im not for cannonical or a fanboy, im not stupid im objective not like you ofc

      Comment


      • #18
        lolol

        Originally posted by dee. View Post
        I'm sorry, do you have two user accounts? Isn't that against the rules or something?

        Anyway - control: poor argument, there's no need to be in control of every piece of software in a good Linux distro - in fact, it can be a disadvantage. Canonical isn't in control of the Linux kernel either, yet it works just fine for them and every other Linux distro. Canonical is simply unable to collaborate with others, and in this they lose a very valuable resource, the manpower and knowledge and skill of a lot of developers. Besides, the whole point of "control" is moot, because Wayland is an open standard - Canonical would be free to jump in to the development of the standard and propose any extension they need, and a stable, common API across all Linux OS's would be beneficial to all, and they could still implement their own Wayland compositor and have 100% control of it.

        Cleaner codebase - there's no evidence of this being the case. Wayland devs are professional coders, with years of experience of the graphics stack, years of experience patching up and maintaining X so they know what works and what doesn't, and what is the best way to do things. Canonical has none of this, all they can aspire to do is stay behind Wayland and mimic them.

        Tests - Martin Grlin already made really good arguments as to why test-driven development isn't necessarily the best way to write code. There's plenty of projects that produce excellent code without being test-driven.

        What Canonical is doing is harmful to the entire Linux platform. Without Mir, we'd have a common API for almost the entire Linux platform (excluding Android). Canonical was on board with the Wayland plan until a few months ago, and now they seem to be hiring Microsoft "ex-workers" (read: moles) left and right and kissing up Microsoft's ass. Makes you wonder...
        if microsoft cant destroy linux foss why canonical whould do? or can do? "What Canonical is doing is harmful to the entire Linux platform." stupid ideia, liberty of choise man, if was redhat doing something like this? you will criticize them?

        itś canonical choise its their problem.

        in may way too see linux kernel itś not in control only on control of "linus and company" its the correct way, and i dont heard linus linus torvalds complains about mir

        Comment


        • #19
          if microsoft cant destroy linux foss why canonical whould do? or can do? "What Canonical is doing is harmful to the entire Linux platform." stupid ideia, liberty of choise man, if was redhat doing something like this? you will criticize them?
          Agreed that no one can destroy the foss world, yet what Canonical is doing causes useless fragnmentation => longer uptake time for newer technologies. How many times does it have to be said : at this point, what Canonical tries to do affects us all.
          Red Hat : yes, I would criticize them, and stay as far from Fedora as I stay from *buntu.
          It's not hard to see that Michael really really doesn't like Mir.

          Hey Michael, how about at least trying to be objective when you talk about canonical and Mir in particular?
          You must be new here. Every single news item is biased based on Michael's opinion.

          Comment


          • #20
            first, i wanted to commend the devs because it appears they are working very fast.

            Mir is the answer to canonical when it started to ask around all project manager to have fixed dates for releases so that they could have everything timed for their six-months cicle with all the bugs ironed out. The guy's there are trying to really make an effort to have ubuntu spread over the globe. I don't see any other distro putting not even an ounce of a similar effort. The OEM(no, not the suse/red hat thing where it's only on request and on limited business laptops) connections, the LTS releases, the valve alliance, show me any other distro that is doing this. For as much as i dislike living in a world where everything is powered by opengl( the power consumption as always gone up for me when used)at least we will see a shift in the laptop and desktop paradigma and they're trying to get GNU/linux out of the stigma that has had since birth. And that's good for the ecosystem. If the hardware vendors start to make an effort to really support linux, as some software companies are starting to do, it would mean out-of-the-box support the like windows have never seen( imagine, all drivers inside the kernel, open-source graphic driver following the Intel example) and all the power of linux in the hands of people. Then you will still be able to install Unknown Geek Linux 10 because the basic support is there, and we will have all others that are still running ubuntu, that as bad as it might sound it's light-years away at the prospective of running windows and it's proprietary trap.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by sheldonl View Post
              It's not hard to see that Michael really really doesn't like Mir.

              Hey Michael, how about at least trying to be objective when you talk about canonical and Mir in particular?
              Moronix is more like a personal blog hence the bias. I would strongly suggest to pull all "Premium" funding right now. Maybe this one will make Michael objective.

              On topic: good luck to Canonical devs. Desktop Linux future depends on them and they know it.
              Originally posted by dee
              What Canonical is doing is harmful to the entire Linux platform.
              Writing open source code is never harmful to the society. Competition is never bad. Even Wayland has won from Mir announcement (with all the calls for active and rapid development and GNOME integration).

              Let the better project win and not be constrained by ideology (or rather, company fanboyism)
              Last edited by ворот93; 06-10-2013, 04:39 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
                first, i wanted to commend the devs because it appears they are working very fast.

                Mir is the answer to canonical when it started to ask around all project manager to have fixed dates for releases so that they could have everything timed for their six-months cicle with all the bugs ironed out. The guy's there are trying to really make an effort to have ubuntu spread over the globe. I don't see any other distro putting not even an ounce of a similar effort. The OEM(no, not the suse/red hat thing where it's only on request and on limited business laptops) connections, the LTS releases, the valve alliance, show me any other distro that is doing this. For as much as i dislike living in a world where everything is powered by opengl( the power consumption as always gone up for me when used)at least we will see a shift in the laptop and desktop paradigma and they're trying to get GNU/linux out of the stigma that has had since birth. And that's good for the ecosystem. If the hardware vendors start to make an effort to really support linux, as some software companies are starting to do, it would mean out-of-the-box support the like windows have never seen( imagine, all drivers inside the kernel, open-source graphic driver following the Intel example) and all the power of linux in the hands of people. Then you will still be able to install Unknown Geek Linux 10 because the basic support is there, and we will have all others that are still running ubuntu, that as bad as it might sound it's light-years away at the prospective of running windows and it's proprietary trap.
                Not only canonical's devs, I also can work very fast, the same speed that you can achieve in the copy-and-paste sequence.
                They use the libhybris, they use the work done on wayland (without have helped in nothing, as usual) and, at the end, they will have an ugly copy of wayland that nobody will use because it will passable of break compatibility every time that canonical will need to modify it and without have care about the others.
                I'm sure that MIR will works good for the canonical needs, because is based on the excellent work done by the wayland's devs.
                I like that many of the new features I read about are the ability to test and analyze MIR while they are still developing it. One thing Canonical is doing right is doing thier due diligence to make sure MIR and Unity8 are well tested during thier development and not just tested after development. Get the bugs out now while they are easy to see and not coded around.
                Yeah, they are famous exactly for that philosophy.
                How many release to have an accettable shell? lol

                Comment


                • #23
                  First, the entire graphic stack has seen some very heavy lifting until about 3 years ago (KMS, TTM/GEM, Gallium3d) and finally is really good and ready to pick up features again. Canonical didn't lift a finger.
                  Second, X was seen as broken, Wayland guy(s) came and started thinking about solutions. Most of what they came up with wouldn't have been possible without the stack work. Canonical didn't lift a finger.
                  Wayland got to 1.0, began to work, and suddenly came Canonical with Mir, taking 95% of Wayland's design.

                  it would mean out-of-the-box support the like windows have never seen( imagine, all drivers inside the kernel, open-source graphic driver following the Intel example) and all the power of linux in the hands of people. Then you will still be able to install Unknown Geek Linux 10 because the basic support is there, and we will have all others that are still running ubuntu, that as bad as it might sound it's light-years away at the prospective of running windows and it's proprietary trap.
                  All drivers in kernel is a dream, it might eventually happen. What I will NOT be able to do is install "Geek Linux 10". Why? Because Mir is deliberately incompatible with Wayland. If I don't use Unity - thus Ubuntu - Mir won't be an option (neither GNOME nor KDE want to adopt it). IF Valve, Nvidia, AMD and other companies start supporting Mir, the FOSS world is as screwed as it was before (ok, a bit less)

                  Writing open source code is never harmful to the society. Competition is never bad. Even Wayland has won from Mir announcement (with all the calls for active and rapid development and GNOME integration).
                  What world do you live in?
                  Competition is never bad. I guess you don't remember the mess when OpenGL, Glide and DirectX were competing. I was very young, but I do remember the pain to get some games going.
                  Imagine competing network protocols (not an only IP internet). Imagine USB had a (successful) competitor. This is the level you want competition at. I'd be fine with it if Mir was trying a different approach, but in this case it's pure NIH.
                  good luck to Canonical devs. Desktop Linux future depends on them and they know it.
                  I strongly suggest you take your own advice :
                  Let the better project win and not be constrained by ideology (or rather, company fanboyism)

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    As I see, the mesa devs have neither responded to nor commited the proposed Mir backend.

                    http://lists.freedesktop.org/archive...ch/035714.html

                    http://cgit.freedesktop.org/mesa/mes...l/drivers/dri2

                    BTW, did Canonical actually expressed regrets for their blatant lies?
                    Last edited by entropy; 06-10-2013, 06:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Serafean View Post
                      Second, X was seen as broken, Wayland guy(s) came and started thinking about solutions.
                      Just a note, Wayland guys are practically X11 developers themselves. Kristian Hgsberg is one of its creators behind the AIGLX used today on majority of distributions.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by finalzone View Post
                        Just a note, Wayland guys are practically X11 developers themselves. Kristian Hgsberg is one of its creators behind the AIGLX used today on majority of distributions.
                        Yes, sorry about that omission.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Andrecorreia View Post
                          if microsoft cant destroy linux foss why canonical whould do? or can do?
                          Canonical can because they are part of the Linux world. They are the most used distribution on desktops. So harming it = harming the entire Linux ecosystem (aren't you Ubuntu fanbois the ones that always tell "the end user doesn't care" and "Ubuntu == Linux" ? :P).
                          Now let's see what Microsoft could do if they would have enough money to control Canonical. Well, maybe first fragment the graphic stack and, with Ubuntus high market share, force other applications to use their shit instead of good alternatives. Then, when enough applications adapted break the whole thing. Repeat that till no company wants to waste any more money for this and users start to switch back to Windows cause of all the breakages with each Ubuntu update. Or just make Unity and Mir that bad that people will love to use the Windows 8 UI instead. Or...

                          Originally posted by sireangelus View Post
                          Mir is the answer to canonical when it started to ask around all project manager to have fixed dates for releases so that they could have everything timed for their six-months cicle with all the bugs ironed out.
                          So instead of joining the developer party and write enough to get things done when they need it they decided to start from scratch? Yea, sounds logical.

                          it's light-years away at the prospective of running windows and it's proprietary trap.
                          Right, with CLA licenses, closed-source graphic drivers (nVidia will never open source their driver, stop dreaming) and closed-source software like Steam.
                          Last edited by V10lator; 06-10-2013, 07:17 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Duplicate

                            It appears as duplication to me, but:
                            - It's not a fork, which for 3-year-old unused software feels like a good thing.
                            - It's a place desperate for efforts, which is why most complain. Duplicate or consistent, easy FOSS compositor code is good.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Serafean View Post
                              All drivers in kernel is a dream, it might eventually happen. What I will NOT be able to do is install "Geek Linux 10". Why? Because Mir is deliberately incompatible with Wayland. If I don't use Unity - thus Ubuntu - Mir won't be an option (neither GNOME nor KDE want to adopt it). IF Valve, Nvidia, AMD and other companies start supporting Mir, the FOSS world is as screwed as it was before (ok, a bit less)
                              Considering that Wayland is essentially targeting the same driver architecture as Mir and since both are aiming for Android binary driver compatibility, this sort of problem would not arise.
                              However if you're talking about application support between protocols, in most cases that will be left up to the toolkits, not the Wayland or Mir teams.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                                Considering that Wayland is essentially targeting the same driver architecture as Mir and since both are aiming for Android binary driver compatibility, this sort of problem would not arise.
                                However if you're talking about application support between protocols, in most cases that will be left up to the toolkits, not the Wayland or Mir teams.
                                Not every application or not every part of an application uses a toolkit, think of games or librarys that play videos.

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