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Kubuntu, KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir

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  • Kubuntu, KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir

    Phoronix: Kubuntu, KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir

    Martin Gräßlin, the maintainer of KDE's KWin window manager, has been vocal against Canonical's Mir Display Server from the beginning. He's now written another blog post on the matter in which he makes it rather clear there is little hope of seeing KDE running on the Ubuntu Wayland-competitor...

    http://www.phoronix.com/vr.php?view=MTM3MjE

  • #2
    i have little hope for KDE if that developer keeps being the main developer. KDE needs to find a new maintainer

    Comment


    • #3
      I applaud this guy. He calls fragmentation - fragmentation and asks Ubuntu to maintain everything if they want to keep control over everything.

      Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
      i have little hope for KDE if that developer keeps being the main developer. KDE needs to find a new maintainer
      Nope, just Ubuntu needs to find KDE maintainer for own wayland clone. He is not obligated to support every spin-off or clone in the wild. Its opensource.

      Comment


      • #4
        this is nothing new really, kde stated from the start that they will not included single distribution specific patches, and to be honest I totally agree with them, the whole thing would become totally unmanageable. Nothing stops ubuntu from adding patches to make it work though.

        if Mir becomes a success and other distribution will also start using it then I am sure there will be official support for the display driver.

        And no KDE does not need a new developer, Martin does a fine job and its only good practice to avoid single distribution specific patches.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
          i have little hope for KDE if that developer keeps being the main developer. KDE needs to find a new maintainer
          Unlike Canonical he managed to develop a stable and performant compositing window manager. Still can't use compiz due to years old dual screen bugs.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by brosis View Post
            I applaud this guy. He calls fragmentation - fragmentation and asks Ubuntu to maintain everything if they want to keep control over everything.


            Nope, just Ubuntu needs to find KDE maintainer for own wayland clone. He is not obligated to support every spin-off or clone in the wild. Its opensource.
            I am not talking about his childish whining rant against ubuntu. I am talking about his attitude towards performance and hardware support which he insist to deny.

            Comment


            • #7
              There's some hope:

              http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag...tem&px=MTM3MTg

              The guy has a KDE t-shirt.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                I am not talking about his childish whining rant against ubuntu. I am talking about his attitude towards performance and hardware support which he insist to deny.
                read his blog I would say, it does not sound like a rant, just a list of issues, from GPL license issues to a none stable protocol.

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                • #9
                  The Martin's approach to the Mir problem is pretty rational and logic, so there is no place for stupid speculation and fanboyism.
                  He explains very well that in KDE world, the compositor (Kwin) and the desktop shell are two separated entity. This means that they need to dialog in some way and this way is the so called protocol.
                  One of the most important aspects from Wayland for us is the ability to extend the protocol. This has already been a quite important feature in X and we are using our own extensions over ICCCM and EWMH to implement additional functionality. Of course our workspace has own ideas and it is important for us to be able to “standardize” those and also make them available to others if they are interested. This is possible thanks to protocol extensions.
                  Mir doesn’t have a real protocol. The “inner core” is described as “protocol-agnostic”. This renders a problem to us if we would want to use it. Our architecture is different (as described above) and we need a protocol between the desktop shell and the compositor. If Mir doesn’t provide that we would need to use our own protocol. And that already exists, it is called “Wayland”. So even if we would support Mir, we would need the Wayland protocol?!? That doesn’t make any sense to me. If we need to run Wayland on top of Mir just to get the features we need, why should we run Mir at all?
                  That is a technical issue, it is not on opinion about the free software philosophy or whatever.
                  Another question that came in my mind is: how can you extend something that is protocol-agnostic without break the compatibility somewhere in the process?
                  The Mir's fanboy can please explain how they think to overcame those problems?
                  Maybe asking to change the KDE architecture in something similar to Mir-Unity (half fusion between compositor and deshtop shell)?
                  LOL.
                  Or maybe agreeing on the Martin's hypothesis:
                  So even if we would support Mir, we would need the Wayland protocol
                  Sounds good?
                  Then why not to jump on the same logical conclusion:
                  If we need to run Wayland on top of Mir just to get the features we need, why should we run Mir at all?
                  ROLF

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think Martin is more annoyed than anything. He put a lot of work into getting KDE to function with Wayland and was probably relieved about the idea that ditching X was in-view, only to find that he may have completely wasted his time. When Canonical decided "meh wayland isn't that great, we're gonna make our own thing", Martin knows that due to Ubuntu's popularity, Mir may (eventually) gain more attention than wayland and therefore might be the official X replacement. This means Martin is going to have to get all of Mir to work, while still maintaining wayland and X. I don't blame him for having a pessimistic attitude, he didn't ask for this and AFAIK, he's not paid so maintaining 3 graphical servers must be a pain. He has enough work to do with KDE even if you disregard wayland.

                    I'm sure if Mir came out first, we wouldn't hear Martin complain. He'd probably still point out the flaws he sees in Mir now, but I'm sure he wouldn't be as pessimistic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                      I am not talking about his childish whining rant against ubuntu. I am talking about his attitude towards performance and hardware support which he insist to deny.
                      About ubuntu:

                      1. is not childish is technically efficient, Mir is ubuntu specific for now and is under heavy development which make it very stupid to support it at this stage and a maintenance hell in the middle term[read and try to understand blog post].
                      2. KDE policy of non distro specific patch have more time than canonical in existance but somehow you assume martin created it out of his ass to troll ubuntu
                      3. KDE expressed it will support X11 and Wayland way before Mir was even an idea and they still do, so no problem here.
                      4. Qt5 have to support Mir before KDE even think about it and as far as i know there is only an lighthouse skeleton code and headers in an ubuntu bazaar repo somewhere but digia hasn't expressed any kind of Mir support up to date[at the very least it missed the Qt5.1 release and prolly Qt5.2].

                      i understand every wannabe smart ass that follow ubuntu religion think Mir will cure cancer and bring world peace or at very least make you feel you actually are a techie but Mir is very basic code right now with 0 support outside canonical scope[unity / "android drivers" libhubris is not from canonical] and is in fact very far behind in features to Wayland[could change in time], so until the protocol stabilize and Mir sees a first stable release forget about support outside canonical scope.

                      as an interesting note, if martin tomorrow decide to support Mir whatever it takes in kwin he will fail cuz Mir miss so many features right now that is technically impossible to make KDE/Kwin work with it[check their in code in the repo and you will understand why], their unity "next" demos are not the real thing but very basic render demos with fixed images and fake data to make it look pretty[is simpler that wayland demos but is better presented i give you that one]

                      About Performance:

                      1. Kwin is the most advanced compositor for X11 in existance hands down[tiled compositing, advanced shader support, color management, many features, Xrender fallback, GLes, EGL, Future GL3+ improvements]
                      2. Kwin sometimes suffer from being too far ahead cuz if you hit a render path bug/cpu fallback [nVidia is famous for those / FGLRX <-- total nightmare] it may require sometime to fix them at driver level
                      3. non-technical folks tend to blame kwin for it but almost 99% of the cases those slowdowns are driver faults[outdated in case of ubuntu unless you get them through PPA] or crappy patches in KDE [ubuntu have many slips here]
                      4. Best KDE experience come from Mesa drivers and distros like Slackware/Gentoo/Arch if you prefer binary distros OpenSuse/Debian unstable is very well maintained but ubuntu KDE is a luck thing maybe it works maybe is horrible
                      5. In Ubuntu sometimes is better to remove the whole kde-desktop packages and compile from sources and if you use blob drivers get an updated PPA for them[the same applies for Gnome 3]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        if kubuntu stays on wayland or even X for a while longer, I see not much problems.

                        The KDE (and distros that use it) people need to solve their own stuff.

                        might even be interesting to see ubuntu on mir and kubuntu on wayland.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                          i have little hope for KDE if that developer keeps being the main developer. KDE needs to find a new maintainer
                          He's not the main developer of KDE and you obviously don't even know what KDE is.

                          Originally posted by Alex Sarmiento View Post
                          I am not talking about his childish whining rant against ubuntu. I am talking about his attitude towards performance and hardware support which he insist to deny.
                          Do a better job.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                            I think Martin is more annoyed than anything. He put a lot of work into getting KDE to function with Wayland and was probably relieved about the idea that ditching X was in-view, only to find that he may have completely wasted his time. When Canonical decided "meh wayland isn't that great, we're gonna make our own thing", Martin knows that due to Ubuntu's popularity, Mir may (eventually) gain more attention than wayland and therefore might be the official X replacement. This means Martin is going to have to get all of Mir to work, while still maintaining wayland and X. I don't blame him for having a pessimistic attitude, he didn't ask for this and AFAIK, he's not paid so maintaining 3 graphical servers must be a pain. He has enough work to do with KDE even if you disregard wayland.

                            I'm sure if Mir came out first, we wouldn't hear Martin complain. He'd probably still point out the flaws he sees in Mir now, but I'm sure he wouldn't be as pessimistic.
                            Pls, don't stop! Just let me take the popcorn!
                            What you think about the possibility that Martin will lose his role because too slow and too arrogant for prone himself and the KDE project in front of the Mir project?
                            :-)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by valeriodean View Post
                              Pls, don't stop! Just let me take the popcorn!
                              What you think about the possibility that Martin will lose his role because too slow and too arrogant for prone himself and the KDE project in front of the Mir project?
                              :-)
                              ehh? lose what?

                              //by the way, I was kinda surprised it's took so long time before phoronix wrote about this blog post. They are usually very fast with Graesslins blog posts.
                              Last edited by Akka; 05-15-2013, 01:15 PM.

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