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  • #16
    Originally posted by TheOne View Post
    I read that somewhere but wasn't sure what was so special about network transparency on X beside been able to forward windows using ssh with minimal data transfer involved. And since canonical made Mir in 2 libraries I wasn't sure if the same could be achieved, but now I see is just that, 2 libraries, no networking involved.
    There's nothing REALLY special about X forwarding. Its not a new concept (not anymore anyway), X's model just has a TON of overhead, and to top it off..its synchronous. So you have two-direction network lag affecting the rendering.

    Whether or not Mir will support network transparency is up to Canonical, given the features they are lacking already... im gonna guess they dont support it now, and wont for a longtime.

    Wayland however supports rooted (full desktop) or rootless (single window) networking, its up to the client to decide that. And the system functions a lot like how VNC does, except better than VNC lol

    Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIctzAQOe44 for a rundown of X and Wayland and how they compare / contrast. Its a long video, but definitely worth watching.

    Originally posted by TheOne View Post
    That sounds like a lot hell of work
    Oh it could be. The other option would be trying to convince those toolkits to accept the Mir patches into mainline, but I really don't see that happening... MAYBE with Qt, but EFL has already said "Wayland all the way." And GTK has enough Red Hat devs that I think they could block the Mir patches from hitting mainline.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by jayrulez View Post
      Wrong! Qt supports Wayland. There is no public statement from of Digia or the Qt community that Mir will not be supported
      I don't think GTK+ and EFL community has said that they won't support Mir in toolkit level either (as long as Canonical does the work). Digia is definitely supporting Wayland with their Qt Compositor (a toolbox for making Qt based Wayland compositors, here's a interesting talk about it) and QtWayland efforts though.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
        Wanna bet that Mir is the one that will be deployed first? On a very succesful linux distro that is, not on some shit that nobody will ever use.
        Being deployed really doesn't count for much if it is halfbaked and barely working. If by some miracle Canonical can get do what took Wayland 5yrs in 1 year, good for them. Get it deployed, get it some real-world testing. But I don't think Canonical's timetable will actually follow through..

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Ericg View Post
          If by some miracle Canonical can get do what took Wayland 5yrs in 1 year, good for them.
          It's good to note that the serious Wayland developement started in 2010 when Intel hired Kristian Høgsberg to work on it. Also a lot of the work was done elsewhere that now Ubuntu can also leverage on like removing xlib dependecies from applications, the EGL work in Mesa, splitting xkbcommon and such from X.org, writing XWayland backend for X.org (that Mir developers forked)... and so on and so forth. That being said I'm still skeptical of Canonical succeeding with their plans. The best scenario would of course be that they actually got to their senses and started using Wayland before too much damange is done and resources are lost.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
            Wanna bet that Mir is the one that will be deployed first? On a very succesful linux distro that is, not on some shit that nobody will ever use.

            If its deployed before Wayland, then that would likely mean that they didn't take the time to think their protocol through, and that in the future it's likely going to have problems, or they are going to have to break it. And it's going to have implementation bugs too.

            All Wayland really needs AFAIK is a few DE related protocol additions, and a DE that gets ported, and a login manager. Wayland is also soon to gain subsurfaces, foreign surfaces

            If Canonical rushes with Mir, and somehow deploys it before a major distro deploys Wayland, then the odds are that Mir is going to be extremly buggy on its release, and it's going to be an inferior protocol

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Teho View Post
              I don't think GTK+ and EFL community has said that they won't support Mir in toolkit level either (as long as Canonical does the work). Digia is definitely supporting Wayland with their Qt Compositor (a toolbox for making Qt based Wayland compositors, here's a interesting talk about it) and QtWayland efforts though.
              GTK is mostly controlled by Red Hat, there's outside contributors, but a lot of GTK devs are paid by Red Hat. And Wayland is Red Hat's birth child, so its PROBABLY a safe bet that they wont support Mir in mainline.

              rasterman, EFL's main dev, has already said they are supporting and backing Wayland and that Mir is just politics. That pretty heavily implies that they arent gonna support Mir in mainline.

              That leave Qt, and KDE. Martin has already said no distro-specific patches will be accepted in Kwin, and right now the only one using or going to be using Mir is Ubuntu so support of Mir in Kwin is out of the window unless other distros pick up Mir (That ARENT ubuntu based -.-)

              Digia may be swayed to support Mir just for commercial reasons, and if so, awesome, good for Mir. But Ubuntu is still gonna have to support out of tree patches for EFL, GTK and KDElibs

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              • #22
                Originally posted by nerdopolis View Post
                If its deployed before Wayland, then that would likely mean that they didn't take the time to think their protocol through, and that in the future it's likely going to have problems, or they are going to have to break it. And it's going to have implementation bugs too.

                All Wayland really needs AFAIK is a few DE related protocol additions, and a DE that gets ported, and a login manager. Wayland is also soon to gain subsurfaces, foreign surfaces

                If Canonical rushes with Mir, and somehow deploys it before a major distro deploys Wayland, then the odds are that Mir is going to be extremly buggy on its release, and it's going to be an inferior protocol
                Not necessarily. Canonical is making use of a lot of groundwork already done for Wayland. If Canonical can get more man hours into Mir, that doesn't equate to rushing it. With regards to the bugs, Mir is well tested where Wayland isn't (That was one of the issues Canonical had with Wayland if I recall correctly).

                Also, Mir is not a protocol nor does it implement a protocol.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                  GTK is mostly controlled by Red Hat, there's outside contributors, but a lot of GTK devs are paid by Red Hat. And Wayland is Red Hat's birth child, so its PROBABLY a safe bet that they wont support Mir in mainline.
                  Considering that GTK+ already has three backends and it's used by numerous applications, including stuff like Lightworks, I don't see them not supporting Mir in the future. It would be pretty unprofessional too _if_ Canonical commits to maintaining the Mir backend. Also I don't believe that Red Hat has nearly as much control over GTK+ as you imply or that they would abuse that position.

                  Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                  rasterman, EFL's main dev, has already said they are supporting and backing Wayland and that Mir is just politics. That pretty heavily implies that they arent gonna support Mir in mainline.
                  It might be true for EFL but I doubt it. The unfortuante fact is that Ubuntu is by far the most popular desktop Linux distribution. Of course Enlightement will never support Mir.

                  Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                  That leave Qt, and KDE. Martin has already said no distro-specific patches will be accepted in Kwin, and right now the only one using or going to be using Mir is Ubuntu so support of Mir in Kwin is out of the window unless other distros pick up Mir (That ARENT ubuntu based -.-)
                  The compositors are pointless in this context. Qt already has a Mir QPA plugin and of course Digia wants to provide top of the class support for Ubuntu as it's quite important platform for them.

                  Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                  Digia may be swayed to support Mir just for commercial reasons, and if so, awesome, good for Mir. But Ubuntu is still gonna have to support out of tree patches for EFL, GTK and KDElibs
                  KDE Frameworks (kdelibs) doesn't depend on any particular windowing system, I mean it runs natively on Windows too.

                  Originally posted by jayrulez
                  Mir is well tested where Wayland isn't (That was one of the issues Canonical had with Wayland if I recall correctly).
                  It has more unit tests... it's by no means "more tested". It's APIs are not stable, things are still under heavy developement, nothing is finished. Wayland however already has stable API and has had a lot more time to stabilize.

                  Originally posted by jayrulez
                  Also, Mir is not a protocol nor does it implement a protocol.
                  It is and it does. It's also a compositor.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Teho View Post
                    It is and it does. It's also a compositor.
                    You are right.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                      ...

                      That leave Qt, and KDE. Martin has already said no distro-specific patches will be accepted in Kwin, and right now the only one using or going to be using Mir is Ubuntu so support of Mir in Kwin is out of the window unless other distros pick up Mir (That ARENT ubuntu based -.-)

                      Digia may be swayed to support Mir just for commercial reasons, and if so, awesome, good for Mir. But Ubuntu is still gonna have to support out of tree patches for EFL, GTK and KDElibs
                      They're doing an in-house SDL port as well. Considering their relationship with Valve (who employs Sam Lantinga) they may have a better chance with this one.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Teho View Post
                        Considering that GTK+ already has three backends and it's used by numerous applications, including stuff like Lightworks, I don't see them not supporting Mir in the future. It would be pretty unprofessional too _if_ Canonical commits to maintaining the Mir backend.
                        That depends on their policy on distro-specific patches, the effect it will have on the size, performance, and code-base of gtk, the quality of the submission, and how much they trust Canonical to actually maintain the code properly.

                        Originally posted by Teho View Post
                        It might be true for EFL but I doubt it. The unfortuante fact is that Ubuntu is by far the most popular desktop Linux distribution.
                        What is the advantage to EFL of accepting the Mir patches rather than letting Canonical keep them as downstream patches? How would accepting the patches into their mainline code base benefit anyone, besides giving Canonical some free advertisement?

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                          What is the advantage to EFL of accepting the Mir patches rather than letting Canonical keep them as downstream patches? How would accepting the patches into their mainline code base benefit anyone, besides giving Canonical some free advertisement?
                          It would benefit any other distribution that decides to officially support Mir perhaps.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                            What is the advantage to EFL of accepting the Mir patches rather than letting Canonical keep them as downstream patches? How would accepting the patches into their mainline code base benefit anyone, besides giving Canonical some free advertisement?
                            I think it's more about providing the best possible experience for the quite important platform. From application developer's perspective it would give more confidence that EFL properly supports Ubuntu.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by intellivision View Post
                              It would benefit any other distribution that decides to officially support Mir perhaps.
                              We can cross that road when (or if) we get to it.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Teho View Post
                                I think it's more about providing the best possible experience for the quite important platform.
                                How would the experience change?

                                Originally posted by Teho View Post
                                From application developer's perspective it would give more confidence that EFL properly supports Ubuntu.
                                But EFL would not really support Mir. Under your scenario, no EFL developers would contribute. Canonical would be the one supporting Ubuntu in EFL.

                                So in that way it would be a lie, implying that the EFL developers intend to provide support for Mir when they really don't. If Ubuntu decided some time down the road to stop contributing, the Mir support would be left with no support at all.

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