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Differences Between X.Org, Wayland & Mir

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  • #31
    Originally posted by smitty3268 View Post
    AMD has told a lot of people they'll "listen". The results have always been questionable.

    And anyway, Valve has confirmed they will be sticking with X for the foreseeable future, so that's no reason to support Mir just for them.
    That news from Valve, was something that made me happy, but it also makes me wonder even more, what the hell ubuntu is trying to achieve.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by erendorn View Post
      Thanks for the definite answer to that point. Do you happen to know where we can find similar details on Mir specific extensions? Had no luck through a quick google search.
      From this page on launchpad there is a tar.gz file at the very bottom that contains the source:

      https://launchpad.net/~mir-team/+arc...-archive-extra

      I looked through the changelog in qgit and this patch file was included in a commit titled "Add Mir patches"

      http://pastebin.com/kGquMJQz

      I know absolutely nothing about EGL or DRI2, but the bulk of the patch adds a new platform file (src/egl/drivers/dri2/platform_mir.c).

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
        We would like to have it that way, no question, but it simply isn't. Nvidia and AMD don't care about the 2% Linux gamers, which mostly own cheap mid-range cards or below (I know, before they all chime in, there are exceptions, people using faster/expensive cards, but how many are they, 5% of the those 2%?). They care about professionals, with cards where one card is more than 1000$, sometimes even a multiple of that, those that bring the reputation in the business market.
        This may change in the future, but we have to see if it really happens.
        two words for you: Steam boxes

        yes Linux users may be 2.5% now of steam users but once the steam boxes come out then suddenly they'll really have strong financial reasons to support linux as best they can as that usershare will expand drastically.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
          two words for you: Steam boxes

          yes Linux users may be 2.5% now of steam users but once the steam boxes come out then suddenly they'll really have strong financial reasons to support linux as best they can as that usershare will expand drastically.
          There is still no final data on what will be in the Steambox by default (not even if the default Steambox will even feature an AMD or Nvidia GPU).
          But let's just for argument's sake assume that the final default design of the Steambox features an APU from AMD and a customized Ubuntu LTS running with Xorg. That means that AMD actually doesn't have to improve much of their Linux drivers, they only have to improve the drivers for the Steambox, read: this specific APU, this specific kernel, this specific Xorg version, no Mir, no Wayland, no other kernels. They only have to fix issues for that to make Valve happy, why should they care for the ordinary Linux user in the consumer market? The rest of their effort can easily go to the professional cards and may be there, as a byproduct, you will see improvements for the consumer market.

          Seriously, AMD now is not even able to keep pace with the [sarcasm]astonishing speed[/sarcasm] of even Slackware's development, why do you think that there will be something improved in the future just because a fixed platform is introduced?
          Last edited by Vim_User; 03-20-2013, 04:31 PM.

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          • #35
            Here's how I think its gonna play out. The driver makers are gonna write drivers only for either wayland or mir and the other side is gonna cave in and adopt. For all the imbeciles who claim that competition is good and doesn't cause fragmentation think of this scenario. If company A needs x number of users per OS to port their software to that OS and if that OS suddenly split into two OSes or display servers in our case, do you think they will magically support both out of the goodness of their hearts. Just look at Apple. Most OS X software is a second citizen to the Windows offerings because that's where the money is.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by garegin View Post
              Here's how I think its gonna play out. The driver makers are gonna write drivers only for either wayland or mir and the other side is gonna cave in and adopt. For all the imbeciles who claim that competition is good and doesn't cause fragmentation think of this scenario. If company A needs x number of users per OS to port their software to that OS and if that OS suddenly split into two OSes or display servers in our case, do you think they will magically support both out of the goodness of their hearts. Just look at Apple. Most OS X software is a second citizen to the Windows offerings because that's where the money is.
              I agree completely with this. I think the announcement of Mir basically says that "Hey, we're popular enough now, let's split from mainstream Linux like Android did so people will think "Ubuntu" instead of "Ubuntu Linux which can be replaced by Debian (or whatever) Linux."

              Basically, now that they have the converts, they want to splinter their religion from the main branch... (yeah, I'm using the weird zealotry for an argument here.)

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              • #37
                I found out! Embrace, Extend and Extinguish?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by leech View Post
                  "Hey, we're popular enough now, let's split from mainstream Linux like Android did so people will think "Ubuntu" instead of "Ubuntu Linux which can be replaced by Debian (or whatever) Linux."

                  Basically, now that they have the converts, they want to splinter their religion from the main branch...
                  Except the analogy doesn't work, because Android started-off as a splinter from the outset, loooong before it had the converts.

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                  • #39
                    Mir vs Wayland support in toolkits will look SAME. No technical reasons that would make one or second "better".

                    And Upstart was BEST solution, that get support from across Linux landscape. systemd started latter AFTER some devs decided that Upstart in not perfect. (Just like now some devs decided that Wayland isn't perfect ) Heck Upstart landed in RHEL, that is probably best know "solid software" badge in Linux world.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by przemoli View Post
                      Mir vs Wayland support in toolkits will look SAME. No technical reasons that would make one or second "better".

                      And Upstart was BEST solution, that get support from across Linux landscape. systemd started latter AFTER some devs decided that Upstart in not perfect. (Just like now some devs decided that Wayland isn't perfect ) Heck Upstart landed in RHEL, that is probably best know "solid software" badge in Linux world.
                      Upstart was best. For a long time.

                      Only very recently has systemd taken the first spot.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by przemoli View Post
                        Mir vs Wayland support in toolkits will look SAME. No technical reasons that would make one or second "better".

                        And Upstart was BEST solution, that get support from across Linux landscape. systemd started latter AFTER some devs decided that Upstart in not perfect. (Just like now some devs decided that Wayland isn't perfect ) Heck Upstart landed in RHEL, that is probably best know "solid software" badge in Linux world.
                        Init Systems and Display Managers are different you can replace the first without changing anything than the programm itself.
                        But this doesn't applys to Display Managers.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Vim_User View Post
                          There is still no final data on what will be in the Steambox by default (not even if the default Steambox will even feature an AMD or Nvidia GPU).
                          But let's just for argument's sake assume that the final default design of the Steambox features an APU from AMD and a customized Ubuntu LTS running with Xorg.
                          This is irrelevant as the default Steam Box won't matter for others. Valve itself will release more than one version of it and others will do, too. So there will be various boxes using different APU and/or CPU/GPU solutions. That means the best bet for an APU / GPU producer to get many deals with many Steam Box producers will be to have good drivers for customer hardware.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Thaodan View Post
                            Init Systems and Display Managers are different you can replace the first without changing anything than the programm itself.
                            But this doesn't applys to Display Managers.
                            No.

                            Then you NEED to rewrite all the startu/shutdown/freeze/hibernate/suspend scripts...
                            Or you use compatibility layer and then you gain nothing.

                            Same as with display server. Both Wayland and Mir will have X compatibility layers, where app will not gain anything, and will not have to be changed.

                            And only code that target X API's will need to be changed. Which for majority of app mean 0. Just replace Graphic toolkits with versions supporting Mir/Wayland backend.



                            As you can see I do not write just Wayland or just Mir. They both will need same measures.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TAXI View Post
                              This is irrelevant as the default Steam Box won't matter for others. Valve itself will release more than one version of it and others will do, too. So there will be various boxes using different APU and/or CPU/GPU solutions. That means the best bet for an APU / GPU producer to get many deals with many Steam Box producers will be to have good drivers for customer hardware.
                              Its hard to tell. Valve may wish to put all "Steam box" candidates under some strict requirements for perf/power efficiency, etc.

                              And others will either not use Valve Steambox brand or will target Win usage instead of any Linux.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by przemoli View Post
                                Then you NEED to rewrite all the startu/shutdown/freeze/hibernate/suspend scripts...
                                Or you use compatibility layer and then you gain nothing.
                                Still easier than rewriting closed graphic drivers.

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