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More Mir Talking Points Come Out Of Canonical

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Ericg View Post
    And why not the other way around? Merge Mir into Wayland-- you know, the solution that actually HAS all the parts "Done right" and ACTUALLY complete instead of a giant TODO list of some of the hardest goals to achieve in a display server, let alone in 6months?
    Because you are only allowed one flip-flop on your word per 2 years. It'll take 2 more before Canonical has earned enough credit to flip flop again and go back to Wayland.

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    • #92
      Originally posted by bwat47 View Post
      Canonical is just becoming a vampire at this point.
      Canonical is a vampire from the beginning. Much like Dracula, the company successfully charmed majority of people to join the club then sneakily bite them.
      You managed to break the spell to find out the real thing.

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      • #93
        Originally posted by bwat47 View Post
        Canonical has a great touch when it comes to UI's, but they don't really have a ton of programming expertise, and the wayland team is far more experienced in creating a display server than canonical's team.
        I wouldn't even give them this credit, I have yet to see a vanilla Ubuntu desktop that I could stomach and things only got worse with Unity. Any time I have gone into the *buntu pool for anything more than testing it has been with a derivative (Ubuntu Studio, Mint, Kubuntu, and once with a minimal cli install that I set up with openbox/tint2 and some Xfce bits).

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        • #94
          Originally posted by finalzone View Post
          Canonical is a vampire from the beginning. Much like Dracula, the company successfully charmed majority of people to join the club then sneakily bite them.
          Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that Ubuntu generally "just works", and the other distros, even the "stable" distros generally look, feel, and act like somebody's hobby rather than a polished product? I'm sure Canonical has a lot more cred in making usable Linux distros than you do.

          I just retried Debian "stable" this morning, and it would hang on shutdown, take forever to boot up, and was in no way more stable or compelling than the much more bleeding-edge Ubuntu 12.04. Then there's the Arch-tards who suggest that Arch LInux somehow should be the dominant Linux distro, even though it's just a toy that is likely to fail to install, and even if it does install, it will pretty much break on every update. I still don't understand the alleged appeal of Arch, but I'm sure some knowledgeable Arch-tard can properly explain that the "I fixed it myself elitism" of Arch trumps Ubuntu's "just works for everybody".

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          • #95
            And regarding ubuntu's laughable claim of having mir and unity-next in an LTS by "2014", let me remind you when in 2010 they commited to having unity on wayland "within a year"

            http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/551

            Only they never did a lick of work on wayland, and never once have even contacted wayland developers, they just expected wayland to do all of the work for them apparently?

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            • #96
              i wonder what kind of video hardware accelation is planned on wayland/mir. the over reliance on community projects tends to lead to the current mess we have with vdpau/va-api/xvba. i hope someone is sensible enough to correct this, either on wayland or mir camp

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              • #97
                Originally posted by Figueiredo View Post
                i wonder what kind of video hardware accelation is planned on wayland/mir. the over reliance on community projects tends to lead to the current mess we have with vdpau/va-api/xvba. i hope someone is sensible enough to correct this, either on wayland or mir camp
                The same as we have now more or less. All APIs ported to Wayland... For the first couple of years...

                I believe that now with OpenCL being more mature and widely used plus being available to FOSS drivers (r600g for example), the best method for the future would be to have software codecs ported to OpenCL. That way the hardware video acceleration would become universal, independent of special hardware or non-free software...

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                • #98
                  Originally posted by Figueiredo View Post
                  i wonder what kind of video hardware accelation is planned on wayland/mir. the over reliance on community projects tends to lead to the current mess we have with vdpau/va-api/xvba. i hope someone is sensible enough to correct this, either on wayland or mir camp
                  vaapi is already ported to wayland afiak

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                  • #99
                    Originally posted by pythonista View Post
                    Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that Ubuntu generally "just works", and the other distros, even the "stable" distros generally look, feel, and act like somebody's hobby rather than a polished product? I'm sure Canonical has a lot more cred in making usable Linux distros than you do.
                    Only credit for Canonical is the PR department and Mark Shuttleworth fame status. Ubuntu itself was decent, Mandrake, SuSE, Mepis did far better job in term of usability and contribution to FOSS.

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                    • Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                      The same as we have now more or less. All APIs ported to Wayland... For the first couple of years...

                      I believe that now with OpenCL being more mature and widely used plus being available to FOSS drivers (r600g for example), the best method for the future would be to have software codecs ported to OpenCL. That way the hardware video acceleration would become universal, independent of special hardware or non-free software...
                      That would certainly be a very nice fallback, but dedicated hardware is already in place and, afaik should be much more power efficient than doing over opencl, this is specially relevant in power constrained devices. Ideally I think there should be a single API to be targeted by every application and supported by every driver, pretty much how is done in windows (DXVA). In android it seems to be OpenMAX..

                      It makes sense that canonical also adopts the same API as android in order to leverage its driver stack, thus the display server should also support this API.

                      I don't know if any of the above has had any weight on the decision to develop mir, but one thing is true. Wayland is intel's project, and canonical is seeking to support a miriad of ARM SoCs, so it makes sense that they do not adopt a DS controlled by competitors. By developing it in house they can have a common ground. What do you guys think?

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                      • Originally posted by Figueiredo View Post
                        I don't know if any of the above has had any weight on the decision to develop mir, but one thing is true. Wayland is intel's project, and canonical is seeking to support a miriad of ARM SoCs, so it makes sense that they do not adopt a DS controlled by competitors. By developing it in house they can have a common ground. What do you guys think?
                        Total and utter bullshit. Wayland is not "intel's project" in any way.

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                        • Originally posted by dee. View Post
                          Total and utter bullshit. Wayland is not "intel's project" in any way.
                          Yeah, this is the same logic that gets people to say GNOME is a Red Hat project. Yes, Red Hat sponsors GNOME and has paid developers working on it (they also have some working on KDE) but in the end no one vendor has complete control over it. This is also true of Wayland with regards to Intel. Hell, using the same logic it could be said that the free Radeon drivers are an Intel project, simply because of the large amount of contributions from Intel in the Linux free graphics stack.

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                          • Originally posted by pythonista View Post
                            Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that Ubuntu generally "just works", and the other distros, even the "stable" distros generally look, feel, and act like somebody's hobby rather than a polished product? I'm sure Canonical has a lot more cred in making usable Linux distros than you do.
                            But not more than many other distros. Ubuntu's big difference is mostly just marketing.

                            Originally posted by pythonista View Post
                            I just retried Debian "stable" this morning, and it would hang on shutdown, take forever to boot up, and was in no way more stable or compelling than the much more bleeding-edge Ubuntu 12.04.
                            I think you misunderstand Debian's audience here.

                            Originally posted by pythonista View Post
                            Then there's the Arch-tards who suggest that Arch LInux somehow should be the dominant Linux distro, even though it's just a toy that is likely to fail to install, and even if it does install, it will pretty much break on every update. I still don't understand the alleged appeal of Arch, but I'm sure some knowledgeable Arch-tard can properly explain that the "I fixed it myself elitism" of Arch trumps Ubuntu's "just works for everybody".
                            I have not heard anyone say Arch should be the universal default, but when it comes to actually knowing your system, systems like Arch and Gentoo are great for this. You do not see the appeal because you honestly seem to have no interest in having a in-depth understanding of the structure of your system or almost complete control over how it works. Just because it does met your use case does not invalidate it's purpose, or make it any less compelling.

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                            • Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                              But not more than many other distros. Ubuntu's big difference is mostly just marketing.
                              Well we're certainly open to suggestions.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hamish Wilson View Post
                                Yeah, this is the same logic that gets people to say GNOME is a Red Hat project. Yes, Red Hat sponsors GNOME and has paid developers working on it (they also have some working on KDE) but in the end no one vendor has complete control over it. This is also true of Wayland with regards to Intel. Hell, using the same logic it could be said that the free Radeon drivers are an Intel project, simply because of the large amount of contributions from Intel in the Linux free graphics stack.
                                Well, as far as I know, KH is the one reviewing patches to be merged, and he is employed by intel specifically to work on wayland isn't he?

                                There is no public evidence that I know of that ARM patches have been rejected, I'm just considering that intel might use the control it has over wayland development and the better open driver to better position itself against ARM vendors. Obviously if such patches were to be indeed rejected, canonical would still be able to fork wayland. But that would put us right where we are today.

                                I also don't know very well the licenses of wayland and mir, maybe someone can enlighten me. However, it is possible that mir is license wise more friendly toward blobs (which are much more common) than wayland.

                                The fact is that any distro is pretty much well supported on intel machines, if ubuntu is to take the next step (no pun intended) it must be very well positioned to support the myriad of GPUs used between mobile phones, htpcs, consoles, tablets, notebooks and desktops, and most, if not all, require blobs to deliver all their features.

                                Is intel friendly towards OSS, not doubt! But if they were really willing to listen to the community and help support other hardware vendors, they would have switched to gallium a long time ago wouldn't they?

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