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More Mir Talking Points Come Out Of Canonical

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  • #46
    Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
    2) There is no instability because of the rolling release model. None. Zero. The guys saying this crap are useless n00bs who shouldn't use a distro for power users anyway...
    Now that isn't true. A rolling release is more likely to find regressions quicker then a periodical release. It's just the nature of the beast. I am not however saying that regressions don't happen in periodical releases either because they do as well it is just that you don't see them as often as on a system with upgraditis.

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    • #47
      If they keep this up, I will run out of both popcorn and peanuts.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by brent View Post
        What's the specific problem with Canonical's CLA? The GNU copyright assignment is similar and nobody seems to give a shit. IMHO, the GNU is no more trustworthy than Canonical. A permissive license would have been a better choice for Mir, though, especially as they want to support GPU vendors which usually don't like GPL family licenses.

        That said, explicit effort to support common graphics stacks, open source and closed source, seems to be the most important difference between Mir and Wayland. As far as I know, Wayland/Weston developers have said (or at least implied) they don't particularly care about the blobs and won't collaborate with GPU vendors or go out of their way to make blob support happen. But no matter how much some people wish for an open source graphics world, the blobs are here to stay for some time.
        Mainly, FSF is a non-profit which specifically exists to further the cause of free software. Canonical is a private company: the only thing you can absolutely trust it to do is act in its own interests. Which you don't really know what they are. So assigning copyright to Canonical is a very different act from assigning it to FSF.

        Two, people don't really care about the FSF copyright assignment because there's no particular reason ever to use it. You don't even have to if you want to be a GNU project, which mostly people don't care about any more anyway. I don't even remember the last prominent new GNU project. It used to be useful to be a GNU project to get hosting and promotion and stuff, but that was at least a decade ago...

        (edit: now I read up on it, you don't even have to assign copyright to the FSF to be a GNU project. You can choose to do so or not.)

        (edit2: in the case of existing GNU projects which are still important, also see What Rahul Said.)
        Last edited by AdamW; 03-11-2013, 03:19 PM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by deanjo View Post
          Now that isn't true. A rolling release is more likely to find regressions quicker then a periodical release. It's just the nature of the beast. I am not however saying that regressions don't happen in periodical releases either because they do as well it is just that you don't see them as often as on a system with upgraditis.
          Nope. You are just confusing bleeding edge release with rolling release... A distro can be rolling release and not bleeding edge.

          I agree that a bleeding edge release is more likely to find regressions, but most of the time they are fixable. And those that need such a distro have the will and the knowledge to do so.

          On the other hand, a rolling release isn't obliged to throw untested code to stable branches... Ubuntu could be rolling release, and have all updates tested properly before deployed... Nothing would change for the end user, except that his system would be more up-to-date especially for apps, and that he wouldn't have the need to dist-upgrade every 6 months...

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          • #50
            Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
            Nope. You are just confusing bleeding edge release with rolling release... A distro can be rolling release and not bleeding edge.

            I agree that a bleeding edge release is more likely to find regressions, but most of the time they are fixable. And those that need such a distro have the will and the knowledge to do so.

            On the other hand, a rolling release isn't obliged to throw untested code to stable branches... Ubuntu could be rolling release, and have all updates tested properly before deployed... Nothing would change for the end user, except that his system would be more up-to-date especially for apps, and that he wouldn't have the need to dist-upgrade every 6 months...
            Rolling release doesn't mean "up to date" either.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
              Nope. You are just confusing bleeding edge release with rolling release... A distro can be rolling release and not bleeding edge.

              I agree that a bleeding edge release is more likely to find regressions, but most of the time they are fixable. And those that need such a distro have the will and the knowledge to do so.

              On the other hand, a rolling release isn't obliged to throw untested code to stable branches... Ubuntu could be rolling release, and have all updates tested properly before deployed... Nothing would change for the end user, except that his system would be more up-to-date especially for apps, and that he wouldn't have the need to dist-upgrade every 6 months...
              No I am not confusing bleeding edge with rolling releases. Regressions happen even on "stable" libraries. It is a fact of life.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                Nope. You are just confusing bleeding edge release with rolling release... A distro can be rolling release and not bleeding edge.

                I agree that a bleeding edge release is more likely to find regressions, but most of the time they are fixable. And those that need such a distro have the will and the knowledge to do so.

                On the other hand, a rolling release isn't obliged to throw untested code to stable branches...
                ACKed, just look at how Gentoo has Stable and ~arch. stable is really rock solid. One bad point for any rolling release : at some point in time there always comes an update that requires manual intervention, BFUs can't be expected to perform it correctly. AFAIK Arch devs got lot of flak because of a few users badly following upgrade docs (glibc /usr migration).

                Because for what I do right now it's the best solution. And I chose the most popular distribution from what works best for me for now. If windows becomes better at what I need I'll switch to that.
                Then you cannot even remotely comprehend why most of the active community is lashing out at Ubuntu.
                The fact that Mir isn't any better than an existing/in development solution is 3rd.
                The fact that it may create incompatibilities is second.
                The fact that it was developed behind closed doors and announced (with plain wrong facts and Wayland FUD) is number 1. (Hell if it had been a Request for Comments the reaction would have been better).

                If they keep this up, I will run out of both popcorn and peanuts.
                ran out a couple of days ago

                Serafean.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                  Funny thing. I just read half an hour ago on ars tehnica a couple of guys using arch and complaining about instability because of the rolling release model and how it always took more work to just get it working, especially after a few months away from it. Arch is not targeted by Valve and it probably has something to do with that. Arch is also not very popular, also probably because of that. The fact that Steam works is just luck, but who knows, maybe tomorrow it won't work. Right now Ubuntu 12.04 is safe for 5 years knowing that steam will work on it from now on. I'm no Ubuntu fanboi as it has plenty of bugs, but for now it's the most popular and it looks like it only will get more popular when vendors will add or improve support for it. That is why I was suggesting people to move to it. If Arch was the most popular I would suggest people to move on it. Get it? It's not the fact that it's Canonical, but that it's the most popular.

                  #pacman -Syu isn't required everytime you start your computer. Arch isn't intended to pander to the masses that's what Mint is for (literally). Just like any distro you can choose what packages you want to update. Arch tends to be pretty stable and Ubuntu benefits from all of us testing the newer kernels and other packages to iron them out so to speak. So in short, you're welcome.

                  Originally posted by aironeous View Post
                  Being relatively new to linux (less than a year) I think it's funny that it seems any opinion someone puts on here is strongly countered by someone else saying how they are totally wrong.
                  Let me check something.

                  Blueberries are awesome.
                  Well, in any community you're bound to have internal conflict, especially in one that's almost completely formed by people who love to bitch about things... Like the phoronix crowd. We love to gripe about things, all sorts of things. In a world where we're the minority of computer users, we always feel like we are being cheated, abused and stepped on. Windows is evil and Crapple is vile. So, that's that.

                  Edit: Blue berries are awesome, but they're not blue....
                  Last edited by nightmarex; 03-11-2013, 04:01 PM.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                    Probably less time than you think... Intel is on the vast majority of systems and they are FOSS. AMD's hardware will eventually become far less dependent on software optimisations that it is now, so the FOSS drivers will catch up. Nvidia will become irelevant as a company and will join the likes of Matrox, having a niche for CUDA etc and nothing more... If you wonder why Nvidia is doomed, then you don't follow the hardware evolutions so closely... There is no future for discrete gpu's anymore. Maybe some years left, but they will disappear like discrete FPUs disappeared years ago...
                    There is no future for discrete GPUs?

                    Right.

                    I guess there's no future for gaming either.

                    What was Valve thinking coming to Linux?

                    Regardless, it's a bit premature to spell out the demise of NVIDIA. I think they've been following the "hardware evolutions" close enough to get into the mobile market, which is why Tegra sales make up 20% of their total revenue right now. Going the way of Matrox is a declaration a bit too early to make.

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                    • #55
                      Like I said, Wayland has schedule and adoption problems, therefore they should put trust in someone else to carry them forward.
                      Canotical has absolutly no interest in paricipating in wayland development, otherwise they would not have started a new project.
                      This is a really disturbing development, not because I don't trust Canotical but because they have proven with Unitiy they are not interested in open development.

                      In case Mir succeeds, chances are high we'll see a two class distribation land, resulting in even more fragmentation.

                      - Clemens

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by daniels View Post
                        Part of that is on Google+. He accused me of being secretly funded by Intel (untrue) to make a secret fork of Wayland (untrue) solely to harm Mir (even if it existed, obviously untrue). He's basing this on me saying that I had implemented server-side buffer allocation on a proprietary EGL implementation, but couldn't release the patches - which was pretty obvious, since it's a proprietary stack. I then went on to describe exactly what you'd need to do to implement this somewhere else, but Mark still believes - despite the fact that I'm neither working on Wayland at all, nor am doing this for Intel - that me doing this is an Intel-funded conspiracy to harm Mir.

                        So I wouldn't listen to a word he says, really.
                        That's really disappointing to hear that from him.
                        I can see that kind of conspiracy mongering coming from some random user on Youtube... Not someone in a position such as Mark Shuttleworth, who owns the company that makes such an influential Linux distribution...

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                        • #57
                          Canonical VS Linux

                          I think cursting Ubuntu, Canonical or Mark Shuttelworth is waste of time. Long debates about what Canonical is doing is not worth time and effort.
                          Mr Mark Shuttleworth won't change his mind no matter what and does not seem willing to collaborate with Wayland team or other open-source groups.
                          Anyway Good Luck to Mir, Good Luck to Wayland, Nouveau, Radeon ... to all.
                          A split is inevitable at this point.

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                          • #58
                            As of late the company line from Canonical resembles the Mr. McGuire "plastics" scene from The Graduate.

                            I just want to say one word to you, just one word. Are you listening? Convergence.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by NomadDemon View Post
                              or maybe wayYMIR - ymir = frost giant from nordic mythology
                              WaYMIR - Frost giant gone the way of Wario or Waluigi.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Linuxhippy View Post
                                Canotical has absolutly no interest in paricipating in wayland development, otherwise they would not have started a new project.
                                This is a really disturbing development, not because I don't trust Canotical but because they have proven with Unitiy they are not interested in open development.

                                In case Mir succeeds, chances are high we'll see a two class distribation land, resulting in even more fragmentation.

                                - Clemens
                                You read it wrong. Wayland team's work would move head by merging in to Mir. Both teams working together to obtain success.

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