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More Mir Talking Points Come Out Of Canonical

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  • #31
    What's the specific problem with Canonical's CLA? The GNU copyright assignment is similar and nobody seems to give a shit. IMHO, the GNU is no more trustworthy than Canonical. A permissive license would have been a better choice for Mir, though, especially as they want to support GPU vendors which usually don't like GPL family licenses.

    That said, explicit effort to support common graphics stacks, open source and closed source, seems to be the most important difference between Mir and Wayland. As far as I know, Wayland/Weston developers have said (or at least implied) they don't particularly care about the blobs and won't collaborate with GPU vendors or go out of their way to make blob support happen. But no matter how much some people wish for an open source graphics world, the blobs are here to stay for some time.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by daniels View Post
      Part of that is on Google+. He accused me of being secretly funded by Intel (untrue) to make a secret fork of Wayland (untrue) solely to harm Mir (even if it existed, obviously untrue). He's basing this on me saying that I had implemented server-side buffer allocation on a proprietary EGL implementation, but couldn't release the patches - which was pretty obvious, since it's a proprietary stack. I then went on to describe exactly what you'd need to do to implement this somewhere else, but Mark still believes - despite the fact that I'm neither working on Wayland at all, nor am doing this for Intel - that me doing this is an Intel-funded conspiracy to harm Mir.

      So I wouldn't listen to a word he says, really.
      lol, thanks for the clarification on that. I was wondering what he was talking about with Wayland "not being as openly developed" as some would think.

      That said, hopefully his claimed dealings with Nvidia and AMD will actually help those companies to create DS agnostic drivers (if that's even possible) which will only help propel Wayland future ahead. That's a big IF though...

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      • #33
        Originally posted by brent View Post
        But no matter how much some people wish for an open source graphics world, the blobs are here to stay for some time.
        Probably less time than you think... Intel is on the vast majority of systems and they are FOSS. AMD's hardware will eventually become far less dependent on software optimisations that it is now, so the FOSS drivers will catch up. Nvidia will become irelevant as a company and will join the likes of Matrox, having a niche for CUDA etc and nothing more... If you wonder why Nvidia is doomed, then you don't follow the hardware evolutions so closely... There is no future for discrete gpu's anymore. Maybe some years left, but they will disappear like discrete FPUs disappeared years ago...

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        • #34
          Originally posted by F i L View Post
          Schedule and Adoption problems?...You do realize Mir is far behind Wayland at this point don't you?...Also, what "new opportunities" are you talking about?
          'adoption' as in going into service/production as the main DS.

          'schedule' as in replacing other display servers and obtaining advocacy from hardware makers.

          Mir is walking on a path already made, like Wayland did on X11. Mir will add to the experience and facilities, so I think they will make headway.

          The opportunity is now here for Wayland team to rally with Mir to make a damn brilliant engine. Both teams have something to gain from this scenario. With success comes rewards and notoriety.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
            I suggest using Ubuntu if you don't want to be left out. New stuff always comes first to Ubuntu since it's the most popular for now. So Steam and other goodies work on Ubuntu but not on other distros. It has nothing to do with evilness or any conspiracy, it's just natural to target the most popular first.
            Or you make your application distro-agnostic. Which won't be as easy now when Canonical decided to stab the community they've been using in the back.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
              I suggest using Ubuntu if you don't want to be left out. New stuff always comes first to Ubuntu since it's the most popular for now. So Steam and other goodies work on Ubuntu but not on other distros. It has nothing to do with evilness or any conspiracy, it's just natural to target the most popular first.
              Steam works just fine on my Arch system... What are the other goodies you mention? Unity? Don't make us laugh Canonical fanboi... BTW, i am using Ubuntuone on my Archlinux too, thanx for the free online storage...

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post
                Steam works just fine on my Arch system... What are the other goodies you mention? Unity? Don't make us laugh Canonical fanboi... BTW, i am using Ubuntuone on my Archlinux too, thanx for the free online storage...
                It also works just fine on gentoo with oss radeon drivers. Of course I havent tried many games yet. But works fine none the less. Hell even the windows steam client works great. all games I've tried render perfectly, just that directx games are too slow to be playable.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                  I suggest using Ubuntu if you don't want to be left out. New stuff always comes first to Ubuntu since it's the most popular for now. So Steam and other goodies work on Ubuntu but not on other distros. It has nothing to do with evilness or any conspiracy, it's just natural to target the most popular first.
                  That sounds like a great argument... to use Windows.

                  Seriously i don't know how many times I need to repeat this. If Canonical can't "play nice" with others in the open community, they don't deserve the same level of respect as other community projects. I'm not saying they're all bad or anything like that, I'm saying judge each of there action for it's merits, not "well Canonical did something really dumb and potentially destructive for no reason, but it's okay cause we have to follow what they do cause they're the 'big kid on the block'". I mean, if that's your attitude, why even use open-source software in the first place?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by brent View Post
                    What's the specific problem with Canonical's CLA? The GNU copyright assignment is similar and nobody seems to give a shit
                    Copyright license agreements are generally an additional hassle and dither casual contributions. If you are working for another company, you will have to get a sign off from the legal department. This applies to GNU agreement as well and people do raise concerns about it from time to time (refer to https://lwn.net/Articles/529522/ for an example) but most major IT companies already have a working relationship with GPL'ed software and understand the GNU agreement . FSF being a non-profit provides a neutral ground. Commercial organizations however are not at the same positon as GNU because of the nature of the agreement is one sided

                    https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/assigning-copyright

                    Now, Canonical recently changed their agreement so that you don't have to assign copyright but give them a very broad license but the end result is that GPL doesn't apply to them and they retain the ability to take your contributions and relicense them under a proprietary license.

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                    • #40
                      Being relatively new to linux (less than a year) I think it's funny that it seems any opinion someone puts on here is strongly countered by someone else saying how they are totally wrong.
                      Let me check something.

                      Blueberries are awesome.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by F i L View Post
                        That sounds like a great argument... to use Windows.

                        Seriously i don't know how many times I need to repeat this. If Canonical can't "play nice" with others in the open community, they don't deserve the same level of respect as other community projects. I'm not saying they're all bad or anything like that, I'm saying judge each of there action for it's merits, not "well Canonical did something really dumb and potentially destructive for no reason, but it's okay cause we have to follow what they do cause they're the 'big kid on the block'". I mean, if that's your attitude, why even use open-source software in the first place?
                        Hear hear...

                        Steam works fine on my Gentoo system. For some reason it doesn't detect the S3TC extension on OSS drivers though; but hey, I'm running git versions of almost everything .

                        Back on topic : I read the post on G+, and as an avid follower of Wayland, I still call bullshit on their reasons. (referenced as on the G+ page) :
                        1) X is old and crappy to work with. Seems to be the consensus.
                        2) "We didn't want to use Weston." The reference compositor is reference for a reason. You do your own after that. In fact, rolling your own compositor could help highlight some deficiencies in Wayland.
                        3) "At the time Mir was started, Wayland's input handling was basically non-existent." So starting from scratch instead of helping out seemed like a good idea... Deep Thought Material.
                        4) "We need server-side buffer allocation for ARM hardware; for various reasons we want server-side buffer allocation everywhere." Can't comment, no idea there.
                        5) "We want the minimum possible complexity; we ideally want something tailored exactly to our requirements, with no surplus code." First, this isn't going to happen, a Wayland-like product will eventually grow out of it. Second, if it does happen, you'll be the only users of Mir...

                        If I'm wrong somewhere, come at me...

                        Oh, and I hate blueberries

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by BO$$ View Post
                          Funny thing. I just read half an hour ago on ars tehnica a couple of guys using arch and complaining about instability because of the rolling release model and how it always took more work to just get it working, especially after a few months away from it. Arch is not targeted by Valve and it probably has something to do with that. Arch is also not very popular, also probably because of that. The fact that Steam works is just luck, but who knows, maybe tomorrow it won't work. Right now Ubuntu 12.04 is safe for 5 years knowing that steam will work on it from now on. I'm no Ubuntu fanboi as it has plenty of bugs, but for now it's the most popular and it looks like it only will get more popular when vendors will add or improve support for it. That is why I was suggesting people to move to it. If Arch was the most popular I would suggest people to move on it. Get it? It's not the fact that it's Canonical, but that it's the most popular.
                          Well, the funny thing is that for the type of distro Arch is, it is fairly popular. It's target group is power users, not casual users. But, let me say a couple of things:

                          1)Arstechnica has gone downhill. Most of the people writting there don't know shit. That is the reason i never visit it anymore...
                          2) There is no instability because of the rolling release model. None. Zero. The guys saying this crap are useless n00bs who shouldn't use a distro for power users anyway...
                          3) No sane desktop user/gamer will stay on 12.04 for 5 years. It is too much, because there will be no real updates, just security fixes. You wouldn't like to use a 5 year old web browser, would you?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                            Protecting your property is justified.
                            Except that it is not property.... You get that, right?

                            F

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                            • #44
                              I find it interesting that Canonical are all but openly saying that NVIDIA and AMD are on board - that's what all the insinuations about "Graphics vendors have been happy to engage and ensure it works well on all architectures" and "our engagements with NVIDIA and AMD" are about - but I haven't seen a single public statement from NVIDIA or AMD yet. If I were Mark I'd be a lot more careful about that. People are always happy to sound as positive as possible in negotiations, right up until the point they have to commit to doing stuff that will cost them money...

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by aironeous View Post
                                Being relatively new to linux (less than a year) I think it's funny that it seems any opinion someone puts on here is strongly countered by someone else saying how they are totally wrong.
                                Let me check something.

                                Blueberries are awesome.
                                Blueberries are disgusting and actively harmful to human health. Go join your friends in AL QAIDA.

                                Comment

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