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More Mir Talking Points Come Out Of Canonical

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  • #16
    Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
    Wouldn't it be good if the best of Wayland was copied over to Mir project by the Wayland team. Both teams getting together to make the best display server. Even if they choose to rename the project for a good gesture. eg: 'Waymir'...
    Wouldn't it have been nice if the Mir developers tried to do exactly what you're suggesting (only to the Wayland project, which was and is far ahead) 9 months ago when Mir was secretly started?


    That said, Mark's calling Mir protesters arguments "FUD" aside (even though it's outrageous & hypocritical), if his other statements about working with Nvidia and AMD to provide quality proprietary drivers for both Mir and Wayland holds any truth (something we can't be entirely sure about these days), then the situation isn't all that bad, and likely will be a benefit to Wayland systems in the future (which will likely be far ahead of Mir for quite a while).

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    • #17
      Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
      Tall Poppy Syndrome.

      You want to cut him down as you're uneasy about the progress of Canoncial or you secretly want to bolster your own project with the downfall of others.

      Cut all this bickering. It's ridiculous.
      Brown Nose Syndrome.

      You want to eat everything that come out of Canonical, even if it's shit.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by funkSTAR View Post
        If CLA wasnt the real issue you could go ahead and convince Shark Muddleworth to do away with it. Good Luck!
        I don't have a problem with Canonical protecting its works with licensing, especially if they are open for those with good will. You'd do the same if you made content.

        Example Facebook has just announced its new look, and they have ripped Unity's layout. Some Android docking and app-launchers from big companies and smaller ones have also ripped Unity and Ubuntu-Phone layout.

        Protecting your property is justified.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
          Tall Poppy Syndrome.

          You want to cut him down as you're uneasy about the progress of Canoncial or you secretly want to bolster your own project with the downfall of others.

          Cut all this bickering. It's ridiculous.
          Word Nazi syndrome.
          You want to cut him down as you're uneasy about other people's factual examples of Canonical behaving like an asshole.
          Cut all this bickering. It's ridiculous.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by F i L View Post
            Wouldn't it have been nice if the Mir developers tried to do exactly what you're suggesting (only to the Wayland project, which was and is far ahead) 9 months ago when Mir was secretly started?
            Like I said, Wayland has schedule and adoption problems, therefore they should put trust in someone else to carry them forward.

            The fact is new opportunities have arisen, and it's up to the Wayland team to take them or plod along as usual.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
              Tall Poppy Syndrome.

              You want to cut him down as you're uneasy about the progress of Canoncial or you secretly want to bolster your own project with the downfall of others.

              Cut all this bickering. It's ridiculous.
              TPS would mean there wasn't reasons for resentment. Canonical resorted to M$ and Crapple slander and FUD tactics. I think most people expected better out of Cononical.

              Still you're right. No point in bickering. I will be surprised if they ever get a working model so now it's only pointless conjecture.

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              • #22
                This man is becoming a joke... The more he writes the more he makes it obvious...

                Seriously, in a more just world, such a worthless man and professional wouldn't have made all that money... Such a waste...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by uid313 View Post
                  Now Shuttleworth say Wayland isn't as open as they want you to believe. Wayland has been open since day one!
                  Part of that is on Google+. He accused me of being secretly funded by Intel (untrue) to make a secret fork of Wayland (untrue) solely to harm Mir (even if it existed, obviously untrue). He's basing this on me saying that I had implemented server-side buffer allocation on a proprietary EGL implementation, but couldn't release the patches - which was pretty obvious, since it's a proprietary stack. I then went on to describe exactly what you'd need to do to implement this somewhere else, but Mark still believes - despite the fact that I'm neither working on Wayland at all, nor am doing this for Intel - that me doing this is an Intel-funded conspiracy to harm Mir.

                  So I wouldn't listen to a word he says, really.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                    I don't have a problem with Canonical protecting its works with licensing, especially if they are open for those with good will. You'd do the same if you made content.

                    Example Facebook has just announced its new look, and they have ripped Unity's layout. Some Android docking and app-launchers from big companies and smaller ones have also ripped Unity and Ubuntu-Phone layout.

                    Protecting your property is justified.
                    is not about riping work since copyleft protect you too[they can force/sue all this unity ripoff to contribute all their code/art back to main unity project legally, if this is the case], the real issue here are blob drivers makers like nVidia and Imagination that despise any form of copyleft/FOSS dependencies, so with this CLA they will most likely will make mir commercial and/or BSD inside ubuntu[so nvidia/imagination can paste their blobs easier] and give a gpl version to everyone else[which most likely can't use blob drivers legally or would be very conditioned<--- mostly in mobile sector].

                    on the other hand nvidia/imagination can shape mir in any way they want[avoiding any form of code release] which is just not possible with wayland since it require copyleft and drivers must be more integrated inside the kernel, i can even predict that ubuntu will include some ripoff or uper layer to PRIME that allow nvidia to access it within mir as closed source as humaly possible

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                    • #25
                      He had another Google+ post this morning with more Mir talk. In short he says that Mir doesn't break anything that works now since non-Unity desktops can still use an X.Org Server, a root-less X.Org Server will be available to run X11 applications on Mir (just like XWayland on Wayland), and that no applications/desktops are yet to be Wayland-specific for causing potential problems with Mir
                      OK, we have heard these points a few times. What I still haven't heard about is what happens when a big, popular piece of software like Steam (or even graphic drivers...) comes along and aims their software for Ubuntu (and therefore Mir). Are all of us who don't use it going to be left out? Please, Shuttleworth, answer me that, then I can be completely happy that Mir is being created. Until then, I feel like Canonical's market share is going to screw the none-Ubuntu Linux community as opposed to bringing Linux to the forefront of technology. That is, unless all distros jump to Mir, which could happen, although Shuttleworth seems to think Canonical have already 'contributed' a great desktop environment to the community (Try installing Unity on Arch Mark, tell me how that goes... Go on, try it) So if Mir is similar... I'm worried.

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                      • #26
                        in fact i think both wayland and mir will exist

                        1.) wayland will be the better choice to work with the FOSS and 99% of distros but problematic with blobs. especially nVidia
                        2.) mir most likely will stay years behind wayland[at performance/stability] but will be supported by blobs in ubuntu/unity[i doubt anyone else choose it afterwards]

                        so you want blobs ubuntu/unity want FOSS any other distro with Wayland, so after a while we will have scripts that will install mir/blobs or wayland/mesa, pretty much like today with blobs and X11

                        all this assuming they can pull it off in the next decade with that rockstar team of developers with so many centuries of experience in drivers and low level graphic core understanding

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by e8hffff View Post
                          Like I said, Wayland has schedule and adoption problems, therefore they should put trust in someone else to carry them forward.

                          The fact is new opportunities have arisen, and it's up to the Wayland team to take them or plod along as usual.
                          Schedule and Adoption problems? Wayland 1.0 was finalized only a few months ago, and is already slated for Sailfish and Tizen (and those are just the ones I know of). You do realize Mir is far behind Wayland at this point don't you? Just because Canonical and Mark claim it will be better doesn't make it so, and the source-code released doesn't point to any significant design change from what Wayland is already doing, or what would be easily possible to do in Wayland.

                          Also, what "new opportunities" are you talking about? Had Mir not come along, do you really believe Nvidia and AMD would have never ported their proprietary drivers to Wayland?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                            in fact i think both wayland and mir will exist

                            1.) wayland will be the better choice to work with the FOSS and 99% of distros but problematic with blobs. especially nVidia
                            2.) mir most likely will stay years behind wayland[at performance/stability] but will be supported by blobs in ubuntu/unity[i doubt anyone else choose it afterwards]

                            so you want blobs ubuntu/unity want FOSS any other distro with Wayland, so after a while we will have scripts that will install mir/blobs or wayland/mesa, pretty much like today with blobs and X11

                            all this assuming they can pull it off in the next decade with that rockstar team of developers with so many centuries of experience in drivers and low level graphic core understanding
                            Too many assumptions you make...

                            You take for granted:

                            1) That NVIDIA and AMD blobs will support Mir and not Wayland
                            2) That Mir will be completed in time
                            3) That FOSS drivers won't improve within this time frame in relation to the blobs

                            The way i am seeing things, by the time both of these projects are ready for production use and toolkit/application support is in place, FOSS drivers may have reached a point where blobs will be reduntant... Especially since the APU will conquer the PC world. Shaders will be scheduled on hardware, memory controller unified, hardware context switching, possible faster ram etc... Too many optimisations will be unnecessery after these developments...

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by F i L View Post
                              Schedule and Adoption problems? Wayland 1.0 was finalized only a few months ago, and is already slated for Sailfish and Tizen (and those are just the ones I know of). You do realize Mir is far behind Wayland at this point don't you? Just because Canonical and Mark claim it will be better doesn't make it so, and the source-code released doesn't point to any significant design change from what Wayland is already doing, or what would be easily possible to do in Wayland.

                              Also, what "new opportunities" are you talking about? Had Mir not come along, do you really believe Nvidia and AMD would have never ported their proprietary drivers to Wayland?
                              Can someone explain what this server-side buffer allocation is all about? Doesn't a client request a buffer via the display server already in Wayland?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post
                                is not about riping work since copyleft protect you too[they can force/sue all this unity ripoff to contribute all their code/art back to main unity project legally, if this is the case], the real issue here are blob drivers makers like nVidia and Imagination that despise any form of copyleft/FOSS dependencies, so with this CLA they will most likely will make mir commercial and/or BSD inside ubuntu[so nvidia/imagination can paste their blobs easier] and give a gpl version to everyone else[which most likely can't use blob drivers legally or would be very conditioned<--- mostly in mobile sector].

                                on the other hand nvidia/imagination can shape mir in any way they want[avoiding any form of code release] which is just not possible with wayland since it require copyleft and drivers must be more integrated inside the kernel, i can even predict that ubuntu will include some ripoff or uper layer to PRIME that allow nvidia to access it within mir as closed source as humaly possible
                                You're probably correct, but I think there will be more to benefit than that of loss, for all, with the current direction.

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